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Chi to be finally shown to exist

thaiboxerken

Penultimate Amazing
thaiboxerken
Joined
Sep 17, 2001
Messages
34,537
I convinced some bleever to actually write the JREF and take the challenge.

My prediction is that this person will fail to define what "chi" is or try to define chi as "breathing" or something to that effect.

Hello,

My name is Nathan ***** and I am a practitioner of Wing Chun Kung Fu from the Duncan Leung/Brian Edwards lineage. I am currently embroiled in a debate with some fellow martial artists about the realities of what the Chinese refer to as Qi or Chi. We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists.

Your $1 million challenge states that it is for any paranormal, ocult, or supernatural occurences. Chi is none of these although some might argue it is psudoscientific. There has been much research by Western Scientists and the Chinese Government over the years regarding this subject. There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi. What we would like is a test that would be scientific and completely unbiased in order to settle this once and for all. I would like to know before I apply for the preliminary tests whether or not proving the existence of Qi will qualify for your challenge or if it has already been sufficiently proven by science. The following website: http://www.chicenter.com/qigongScience.htm has some information on Qigong. Does Chi Exist?

Thank you for your time,
-Nathan ***** (name protected)

YES!!! If you can prove that "CHI" exists, absolutely, that would qualify for the JREF Challenge, and we would LOVE to see such a test take place.
The problem is that what YOU believe would prove it, may not truly prove anything. Most such claims are made by persons who require little if any real evidence.
But you say you want a scientific test, which suggests that you may the exception to this trend amongst Chi practitioners and "believers" in general.
I suggest that you read the Challenge rules, fill out a Challenge application, and send it here, to my attention, at your earliest convenience. Just follow the rules, and I'll email you shortly after receiving your application.

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.
Email: kramer@randi.org
JREF Website: www.randi.org
Click to expand...


Kramer, if this guy wins, do I get affiliate proceeds for forwarding him to the JREF?
 
CHI exists.

It's a big city right next to LAKE MICH. in ILL.
 
Okay, enough with the wisecracks. I agree, that the definition is going to be the sticking point. Moreover, the question of existence is not something that is determined by vote.
 
Did you guys read the website he linked? It gives us our definition for him to use. And I quote, with emphasis added:

Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.They believe that the paradoxes, odds, and probabilities, and complementary nature of the reality, the dynamic cosmic dance of the energy and matter, role of consciousness, big bang, dynamic structure of chaos, different dimension, in-separability or undividable wholeness etc., have all been in the writings of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Qigong for thousands of years. They point out that the Quantum Mechanics is merely a re-discovery of the ages old Eastern Wisdom. The theory created by ancient sages and teachers is based on their experiences of qigong practice. It has endured the test of time and is making a tremendous resurgence as a new science at the threshold of the new century. This theory continues to develop and become profoundly understood as qigong practice progresses to deeper levels in the process of becoming more prevalent in our everyday lives.

The Integral Theory of Oneness is not only the theoretical foundation of the school of qigong, it is also the essence of Chinese culture. It also provides a foundation for a quantum model for the holistic mind-body connection. Dr. Deepak Chopra, an inspiring pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine, has suggested that the human body is controlled by a network of intelligence grounded in quantum reality. This intelligence lies deep enough to change the basic patterns that design our physiology. His concept of the quantum mechanical human body ethos the model widely accepted in the Qigong field: the intelligence that creates and maintains the connection between the mind and body, between thought and physical manifestation is the unified field of consciousness and vital force, called chi. Chi, the mediator between mind and body, is nothing but a quantum phenomena. In other words, Primal Chi is the unifying field of matter, energy and consciousness.
Click to expand...

There we go. Chi is a unifying field of force that combines matter, energy, and a third substance called consciousness, all of which HAVE to be quantifiable and measurable in order to be scientific. Prima facie, he fails, beause consciousness is not measurable, and hence any field which can unify with matter/energy is unquantifiable as well. Chi is also (paradoxically) described as the unified field of consciousness and "vital force." Sounds like old-fashioned vitalism to me, which is soundly refuted as non-scientific. Also, it calls chi a "quantum phenomena," which must mean that there are very small, probably massless particles called "chi-ons" which represent and carry this energy around, yet remain undetectable by modern science and serve no place in particle theory models.

Thus, a priori, we can establish his awful failure at a demonstration of chi without the need to recourse to experimentation. Any effect he could produce as an empirical effect of "chi" is complete BS because there is good reason to believe such a force is logically impossible.
 
Well, he doesn't have to demonstrate real chi at all, does he?

If he demonstrates a so-called chi ability he wins even if it was all accomplished with psychokinesis.

In martial arts chi can save someone from an attack by deflecting someone's ability to strike.

Maybe he could do a demonstration by knocking out an angry hamster without touching it. It would only be considered cruel if he could do it.

Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?
 
Atlas said:
...
Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

But the dog would have to be really angry. Otherwise it won't work.
 
I like the wording Nathan uses:
There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi.
Click to expand...
Although he also says "We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists," it's implicit here that he thinks there have been studies successfully lending credibility to the idea. The second category of studies, on the other hand, merely try to discredit it.
 
from the website in question

Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.
Click to expand...

Do they mean Niels Bohr from Copenhagen who died in 1962?

If so I guess "Chi" allows you to talk to the dead!

LLH
 
I love the "lends credibility" phrase.

In other words, the study did nothing to prove the "woo de jour".

Simply having a "scientific" study that doesn't discredit the topic gives them something to point to and say "See we have studies!"
 
I presume he's going to demonstrate Chi in action, rather than whip something quantifiable up in the lab or pull it out from under a microscope. By that I mean he's probably going to try and make people wobble at a distance or make them uncomfortable with long, hard stares.

I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!
 
Kenny 10 Bellys said:
I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!
Click to expand...

:clap:

I practice and teach Tai Chi (and Bagua, and Hsing-i), and I couldn't agree more. Most Tai Chi being taught today is nothing more than new age woo woo.
 
I had to quit Tai Chi for the same reason - but I kept giggling when they started talking like that, and I think I was distracting the class.

Lord beat me to it - Bohr's been dead for a while. Maybe they meant that they have seen their work 'validated' in the Eastern Philosophy - figuratively speaking? In which case, they may have well claimed other scientists as well, since they didn't mean that the scientists supported the claims. But it was a rather misleading way of putting it. I guess that's the point.

More to THE point, I can't think of a protocal that would allow them to demonstrate 'chi' effectively, besides the stuff Yellow Bamboo already tried.
 
What's interesting is that I hear all kinds of spectacular claims about Chi that would make great demonstrations, but when demonstrated, it's always something subtle.
 
The ones I love are those that say "I can do this", and then when they fail, say "Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening." :D
 
I'd be impressd by a martial artist using chi to break only the third brick in a stack of five. I'm pretty sure Quai Chang Cain could do it. He could also levitate but only during meditation.

I kinda miss that tv show.
 
What's happening with the challenge Nathan?
I don't see much followup lately.

As you suggested I went to the chi website and read all the gumph, all the usual claims, and all the usual woo talk.
It cerainly did not explain what chi was, in any understandable english terms.
So whats new?

Of course the big problem for Nathan is how to define the test.
The website implies (and says using many various woo words) that chi is some sort of 'energy' that has some sort of 'effect'.

OK, so design a simple test that measures that 'energy', and that clearly shows that that 'energy' is not from some other known source.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so design a simple test that measures the 'effect' of the chi,
and clearly shows that the 'effect' is not from some other known source. (btw, as we all know this is exactly the same as the previous test, but just uses some different words).

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so rather than me try to help you design a test, why don't you cogitate about the supposed chi 'enegy' and its 'effect'; and then identify to yourself how you might measure that; and then design a simple test to measure it. And then collect the million dollars.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

So what you are probably saying is that you cannot measure it.
And to paraphrase the famous words of someone whos name I cannot remember just now "If you cannot measure it then it does not exist".

Now, what else is new in the land of chi?
 
Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.
 
MoonDragn said:
Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.
Click to expand...
So it's using actual physical effects rather than "Chi?"
 
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