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Chavez - Castro, or Chavez != Castro?

ImaginalDisc

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With Hugo Chavez's most recent electoral victory, comparisons between Fidel Castro and Chavez abound. Granted, they're both socialist/communist Latin American leaders, and they both staged coups (one successful and one failed), but how much do they really have in common? One was elected, and one appointed himself President for life.
 
I think we have a collective responsibility in the degree to which the comparisons end up overlapping. My opinion is that the world needs to make clear that we expect Chavez to respect spheres of autonomy for nongovernmental institutions and individuals, and for him to respect the constitution and step down in 2012 when he is constitutionally prohibited from running for another term.
 
Dave1001 said:
I think we have a collective responsibility in the degree to which the comparisons end up overlapping. My opinion is that the world needs to make clear that we expect Chavez to respect spheres of autonomy for nongovernmental institutions and individuals, and for him to respect the constitution and step down in 2012 when he is constitutionally prohibited from running for another term.
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How exactly does that address the Chavez/Castro comparison?
 
ImaginalDisc said:
With Hugo Chavez's most recent electoral victory, comparisons between Fidel Castro and Chavez abound. Granted, they're both socialist/communist Latin American leaders, and they both staged coups (one successful and one failed), but how much do they really have in common? One was elected, and one appointed himself President for life.
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How about we accept Chavez on his own merits? I don't understand the need to juxtapose him with Castro.

DR
 
ImaginalDisc said:
With Hugo Chavez's most recent electoral victory, comparisons between Fidel Castro and Chavez abound. Granted, they're both socialist/communist Latin American leaders, and they both staged coups (one successful and one failed), but how much do they really have in common? One was elected, and one appointed himself President for life.
Click to expand...

Well obviously one is on the way out and the other is on the way up. This juxtaposition makes comparing them far more interesting. Chavez is most obviously vying to be Castro's political heir (for want of a better term). That they came to power in different ways is of small consequence. Castro-Chavez comparisons are fairly apt in many ways:
  • Castro has led a "cult of personality"...Chavez is similarly charismatic.
  • Castro has led a Communist revolution...Chavez is leading a Communist revolution albeit at the ballot box via his afore mentioned "COP".
  • Castro has demonized the USA and it's leaders...Chavez has demonized the US POTUS before the UN General Assembly.
  • Castro has consolidated his power by motivating his people to expect a US invasion or coup. (of course the whole Bay of Pigs escapade only bolstered Castro's stock) Chavez is similarly preparing Venezuela for a US invasion. (which is BTW far less likely...and is frankly ridiculous)

That's all I've got at the moment. Comparing the two may seem a bit silly to many, but if it helps people to come to a better understanding of these two leaders and their place in the political landscape then to my mind it's valid.

-z
 
rik;

In general I agree with you, but I did want to make a couple of comments on your analysis...

rikzilla said:
  • Castro has led a "cult of personality"...Chavez is similarly charismatic.
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  • I don't think that Chavez has gone over the top yet, making his rule synomous (sic) with his country, as Castro did. He might yet; without a doubt the man can draw supporters.

    [*]Castro has led a Communist revolution...Chavez is leading a Communist revolution albeit at the ballot box via his afore mentioned "COP".
    Click to expand...

    Not sure I'd call him a Commie yet; a Populist/Socialist are the two words that come most to mind, along with "opportunist". There is still some debate how strong a committed Communist Castro was before we made him the enemy and left his only lifeline with the Soviets..

    [*]Castro has demonized the USA and it's leaders...Chavez has demonized the US POTUS before the UN General Assembly.
    Click to expand...

    Agreed. of course, lots of leaders have gotten big boosts in popularity by demonizing those that stand in their way (read some of the body of the Declaration of Independence, or even some of the stuff TomJeff wrote that got cut out..) ;)


    [*]Castro has consolidated his power by motivating his people to expect a US invasion or coup. (of course the whole Bay of Pigs escapade only bolstered Castro's stock) Chavez is similarly preparing Venezuela for a US invasion. (which is BTW far less likely...and is frankly ridiculous)
    Click to expand...

    Off topic, I wonder how many Cubans still buy into that line, since the Bay of Pigs is 43 years old, which is more aged than the majortiy of Cuban, IIRC. As for invasion, well, there is more reasons (counted in billions of barrels) for us to invade Venezuela than there is Cuba; and scare tatics about the 'enemy' is not something just for these two characters.


    The major difference I see is that Cuba has nothing we cannot do without or get elsewhere; Sugar, Cigars, and Beaches. So isolating Fidel didn't cost us much. Hubris Hugo has oil; gobs and gobs of it. Very close to us, relatively speaking. And we wants it; precious.

    And that changes the dynamics, but perhaps is best for another thread.
 
Hutch said:
rik;

In general I agree with you, but I did want to make a couple of comments on your analysis...



I don't think that Chavez has gone over the top yet, making his rule synomous (sic) with his country, as Castro did. He might yet; without a doubt the man can draw supporters.



Not sure I'd call him a Commie yet; a Populist/Socialist are the two words that come most to mind, along with "opportunist". There is still some debate how strong a committed Communist Castro was before we made him the enemy and left his only lifeline with the Soviets..



Agreed. of course, lots of leaders have gotten big boosts in popularity by demonizing those that stand in their way (read some of the body of the Declaration of Independence, or even some of the stuff TomJeff wrote that got cut out..) ;)




Off topic, I wonder how many Cubans still buy into that line, since the Bay of Pigs is 43 years old, which is more aged than the majortiy of Cuban, IIRC. As for invasion, well, there is more reasons (counted in billions of barrels) for us to invade Venezuela than there is Cuba; and scare tatics about the 'enemy' is not something just for these two characters.


The major difference I see is that Cuba has nothing we cannot do without or get elsewhere; Sugar, Cigars, and Beaches. So isolating Fidel didn't cost us much. Hubris Hugo has oil; gobs and gobs of it. Very close to us, relatively speaking. And we wants it; precious.

And that changes the dynamics, but perhaps is best for another thread.
Click to expand...

:D
Well I think we agree more than not. To my mind Chavez is in the process...IOW he's becoming whereas Castro is slowly shuffling off the world stage. (as well as this mortal coil)

As far as oil goes...I remember reading somewhere (I need to look it up) that Venezuelan oil comes contaminated with some other substance. That it requires special refining steps that only certain special purpose refineries are capable of and that 90% of said refineries are located in the US. Is this remotely true? If it is then Chavez is in a bit of a hole as far as customers are concerned. If it's not true then I am terribly mistaken and keenly embarrassed.

Sadly I'm not at all up on all things Venezuelan...I merely attempted an analysis based on the scant stuff I remembered.

-z
 
I think that Castro hasn't done too badly with Cuba in terms of health care and education.

But the guy is still a dictator. And he really hasn't the greatest human rights record.
 
Okay I looked...Venezuela has what is referred to as "unconventional oil reserves". Most of it's oil is heavy crude which is naturally contaminated with sulfur and heavy metals. It requires special refinement capabilities, the most popular/cost effective being; "Residuum Desulfurization (RDS)". Most of the plants capable of RDS are located in the Southern US Gulf region. I'm still looking right now, but haven't yet found plants doing RDS outside the US though I've heard Chavez saying he was going to sell more oil to China. Not sure how he's going to manage this unless China is building RDS capable refineries.

-z
 
ImaginalDisc said:
How exactly does that address the Chavez/Castro comparison?
Click to expand...

It's saying that perhaps Chavez could become Castro, if we the people, of planet Earth, don't support Venezuelans in keeping their institutions stronger than their charismatic leaders. Chavez will not be like Castro when he peacefully steps down in 2012, as the Venezuelan constitution directs that he must.
 
Dave1001 said:
It's saying that perhaps Chavez could become Castro, if we the people, of planet Earth, don't support Venezuelans in keeping their institutions stronger than their charismatic leaders. Chavez will not be like Castro when he peacefully steps down in 2012, as the Venezuelan constitution directs that he must.
Click to expand...

I don't see how it's useful or correct to compare Castro today, and the Castro of history, to the Chavez people fear will come about. I'm interested in the comparison between Chavez, the real one, today, to Castro, not speculation.
 
Hutch said:
There is still some debate how strong a committed Communist Castro was before we made him the enemy and left his only lifeline with the Soviets.
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I.e. the US did the right thing -- refused to deal with a dictator. Last time we ever pulled that boneheaded move.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
I don't see how it's useful or correct to compare Castro today, and the Castro of history, to the Chavez people fear will come about. I'm interested in the comparison between Chavez, the real one, today, to Castro, not speculation.
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okay. Chavez to day is at most a protean Castro.
 
So it would appear that any foreigner who disagrees with the United States should be ridiculed and/or demonised.

Looks like the UK will be in your good books for a while
 
Dave1001 said:
okay. Chavez to day is at most a protean Castro.
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I'd say he's a hydrocarbon Castro. ;)

(Was going for protean => protein/carbohydrate play on words, and it almost works.)

PS: I tip my chapeau at your wordsmithing. It's a term I rarely use, or find use for, so I had to look it up to refresh the brain. Glad I did, thanks to you. :)

protean

1. Displaying considerable variety or diversity.
2. Readily assuming different shapes or forms.

DR
 
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Dave1001 said:
My opinion is that the world needs to make clear that we expect Chavez to respect spheres of autonomy for nongovernmental institutions and individuals, and for him to respect the constitution and step down in 2012 when he is constitutionally prohibited from running for another term.
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It won't be too hard for Chavez to change that constitution to suit his needs. He's already done it before, why would he stop now?

It's not nearly as difficult a process as it is in the US.
 
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