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Chandler talk to Am Soc of Criminology 2009

tfk

Illuminator
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Oct 26, 2006
Messages
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I just ran across this on Chandler's website.

Two short videos, each about 8 minutes long.

Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ntA6IHhzI
Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2OnrPE8rYM

No telling what the audience thought of the talk. No feedback or audience questions.

I can easily see that a nontechnical person (say on a jury) who was completely ignorant of the issues might be convinced of all his nonsense.

This video should become a monument to the absolute, 100% requirement that "expert witnesses" must demonstrate proven competence WITHIN THE SPECIFIC FIELD on which they are testifying.

High school physics is utterly worthless in understanding the collapse of real buildings in the real world.

Of course, Chandler has been fighting this battle for years now. He knows the failures & flaws within his own presentation. He is simply being unbelievably dishonest.

I wish there existed as obvious a metric for dishonesty as there is for incompetence.

A smattering of truthful statements, insertion of multiple erroneous statements, and a few carefully chosen videos. And utterly incompetent, baseless conclusions.

Chandler would make the PERFECT "expert witness" ...
... for some shyster trying to get a guilty client off.


tom
 
Just a warning, before this thread possibly devolves into name calling, Chandler, IIRC, is a JREF member.

TAM:)
 
Just a warning, before this thread possibly devolves into name calling, Chandler, IIRC, is a JREF member.

TAM:)

A timely bit of advice there T.A.M.

A bit of my personal experience. My first post on the Internet - Nov 14 2007 - on the now defunct Richard Dawkins net was on 9/11 matters. WTC collapse was the issue that led me into Internet posting. And in that first post I named what I think was Tony Szamboti's first paper as a typical bit of "confuse the non experts rubbish". Masses of detailed calculation built on the poor foundation of a wrong model of WTC collapse. Looks impressive unless you can interpret the pseudo engineering.

A few months later I was introduced to Chandler's video - the one showing the collapse with camera shake stabilised out using frame by frame editing. A neat piece of work BUT used by Chandler to draw false conclusions. And the video actually showed the opposite of what Chandler found. I used it that way for many months - l would invite readers to ignore the Chandler commentary and look at the points I identified. One specific thing it showed was that the Open Office Space collapse was progressing ahead of outer tube column collapse.

He has one thing going for him - he sounds reasonably credible and "I can easily see that a nontechnical person who was completely ignorant of the issues might be convinced of all his nonsense." However I doubt "...(say on a jury)..." - lioke most truthers he would be carved into pieces by competent cross examination.
 
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A timely bit of advice there T.A.M.

Agreed. Thanks, Tam.

A few months later I was introduced to Chandler's video - the one showing the collapse with camera shake stabilised out using frame by frame editing. A neat piece of work BUT used by Chandler to draw false conclusions. And the video actually showed the opposite of what Chandler found. I used it that way for many months - l would invite readers to ignore the Chandler commentary and look at the points I identified. One specific thing it showed was that the Open Office Space collapse was progressing ahead of outer tube column collapse.

Can you post a link to your comments?

He has one thing going for him - he sounds reasonably credible and "I can easily see that a nontechnical person who was completely ignorant of the issues might be convinced of all his nonsense." However I doubt "...(say on a jury)..." - lioke most truthers he would be carved into pieces by competent cross examination.

Agreed. When competently challenged, his fast & loose treatments of facts are exposed, & his conclusions crumble.

Could that possibly explain why he prohibits commentary on his Youtube presentations?


tom
 
I just ran across this on Chandler's website.

Two short videos, each about 8 minutes long.

Part 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ntA6IHhzI
Part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2OnrPE8rYM

No telling what the audience thought of the talk. No feedback or audience questions.

I can easily see that a nontechnical person (say on a jury) who was completely ignorant of the issues might be convinced of all his nonsense.

This video should become a monument to the absolute, 100% requirement that "expert witnesses" must demonstrate proven competence WITHIN THE SPECIFIC FIELD on which they are testifying.

High school physics is utterly worthless in understanding the collapse of real buildings in the real world.

Of course, Chandler has been fighting this battle for years now. He knows the failures & flaws within his own presentation. He is simply being unbelievably dishonest.

I wish there existed as obvious a metric for dishonesty as there is for incompetence.

A smattering of truthful statements, insertion of multiple erroneous statements, and a few carefully chosen videos. And utterly incompetent, baseless conclusions.

Chandler would make the PERFECT "expert witness" ...
... for some shyster trying to get a guilty client off.


tom

He isn't using high school physics. He is a high school physics teacher with a degree. Nice attempt to conflate the two.

Can you point out the "multiple erroneous statements" in Chandler's presentation?
 
I just ran across this on Chandler's website.

...tom
The opening slide is AE911 Truth, makes what follows delusional claptrap.



He isn't using high school physics. He is a high school physics teacher with a degree. Nice attempt to conflate the two.

Can you point out the "multiple erroneous statements" in Chandler's presentation?
Can you point out anything he has right about his moronic CD delusion? Where is his evidence? Why has he failed?
 
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He isn't using high school physics. He is a high school physics teacher with a degree. Nice attempt to conflate the two....
Whether that claim is true or not the WTC collapses can be easily explained to a person who is familiar with high school physics and who is prepared to listen.l
...Can you point out the "multiple erroneous statements" in Chandler's presentation?
It would be a usefull exercise to look for yourself now that you know they are there. List the ones you find and some of us can check if you got them all. :)

Whilst you are at it put a "correct version" with each one. ;)
 
Whether that claim is true or not the WTC collapses can be easily explained to a person who is familiar with high school physics and who is prepared to listen.l
It would be a usefull exercise to look for yourself now that you know they are there. List the ones you find and some of us can check if you got them all. :)

Whilst you are at it put a "correct version" with each one. ;)

I didn't make the claim.

tfk posted an OP, in which he claimed that Chandler's presentation contained "multiple erroneous statements".

Is it really unreasonable to ask him to name some?
 
Search function works. Feel free to use it sometime.

That isn't how it works. If you start a thread with a bare assertion and no supporting evidence then that is your problem. It is not my responsibility to search for the evidence the OP omitted.
 
That isn't how it works. If you start a thread with a bare assertion and no supporting evidence then that is your problem. It is not my responsibility to search for the evidence the OP omitted.

It is your responsibility to understand the argument you criticize, and that involves research. It's nothing more than what we expected of ourselves when we came to this forum. None of our arguments exist in a vaccuum, and neither do our references. There's a history here, and it's not our fault that you are late to it. The burden is on you to understand arguments before you come here.

What you should be doing instead of complaining is saying "Thank you for directing my attention to threads where this has already been discussed". Because that's exactly what I did: I told you where you can find your answer.

If you don't want to do the minimum research required, why discuss topics with you? All you had to do is use the search term "David Chandler" and no more. That's all I did.
 
It is not my responsibility to search for the evidence the OP omitted.

If you people would come up with as much proof for your claims about 9/11 as you do excuses not to investigate 9/11, you'd have Dick Cheney dangling from the gallows by now.
 
It is your responsibility to understand the argument you criticize, and that involves research. It's nothing more than what we expected of ourselves when we came to this forum. None of our arguments exist in a vaccuum, and neither do our references. There's a history here, and it's not our fault that you are late to it. The burden is on you to understand arguments before you come here.

What you should be doing instead of complaining is saying "Thank you for directing my attention to threads where this has already been discussed". Because that's exactly what I did: I told you where you can find your answer.

If you don't want to do the minimum research required, why discuss topics with you? All you had to do is use the search term "David Chandler" and no more. That's all I did.

I must understand arguments here before I even come here? I thought this was an internet forum.


Your wall of words will never negate the fact that the OP did not include any reference to the erroneous statements he asserted were in the Chandler presentation.

If I started a thread with such a statement and no links you would be the first to accuse me of posting unsupported statements.

You talk of the search function, but lurkers here cannot even use the search function if they don't register an account.

However, I do thank you for posting the links.
 
That isn't how it works. If you start a thread with a bare assertion and no supporting evidence then that is your problem. It is not my responsibility to search for the evidence the OP omitted.
Chandler's conclusion of CD is a delusion. Case closed, based on many rational reasons. This is why Chandler's conclusion failed, it is false.

To prove otherwise is impossible. But go ahead, try.
 
Chandler's conclusion of CD is a delusion. Case closed, based on many rational reasons. This is why Chandler's conclusion failed, it is false.

To prove otherwise is impossible. But go ahead, try.

NIST should be grateful to Chandler for pointing out to them the freefall period which their dozens of scientists had somehow overlooked.
 
He isn't using high school physics. He is a high school physics teacher with a degree. Nice attempt to conflate the two.

I do not conflate the two.

Most scientific & engineering professions requires that you carefully restrict your public pronouncements to areas that fall within your specific field of expertise. Fortunately for Chandler, teachers do not fall under this restriction.

Chandler's field of expertise is teaching rudimentary physics principles to teenagers. It is not, and never has been, the analysis of collapsing buildings. In this field, he is an absolute amateur. In fact, he is WORSE than an absolute amateur. He is a guy with a little bit of knowledge (not a lot!) who deludes himself into thinking that he knows what he's talking about.

If he were a professional engineer, he would be in grave danger of professional sanction. Not for the fact that "he disagrees with the gov't". But for incompetence.

Re: "using high school physics"…

He is using "high school physics". And he's doing it incompetently, to boot.

A ball falling in a vacuum (untouched by any force other than gravity) is exactly the high school physics problem that he is describing. Unfortunately for Chandler, this is NOT a ball falling in a vacuum. It's a building collapsing. With [edit: 100] several different significant effects that he is overlooking.

Part of every competent analysis is publishing your raw data for public examination. Chandler fails at this. He has repeatedly refused to publish his raw data (position vs. time), and instead publishes only his derived data (velocity vs. time). When pressed, his response is "get the toolkit & generate your own data". This gets an "F" in high school physics.

Part of every competent physics analysis is an "error analysis". Chandler provides none. He'd get a "D" for this in my high school physics class. He'd get an "F" in my freshman engineering classes.

Part of every competent analysis would be an careful assessment of the magnitude of the effect that one was searching for and a comparison of this magnitude to the resolution of your analysis.

In this case, a difficult analysis would require:

1. an analysis of possible failure mechanisms

2. an estimation of the magnitude of the forces that he would expect from the destruction of the north wall associated with each failure mechanism

3. an error analysis on his data showing what sort of resolution his data could provide in terms of resisting force for each proposed failure mechanism.

Performing this analysis with the PROPER failure modes would have shown him that he would not be able to pick out the relatively small resisting forces (compared to the weight of the building) from his acceleration data.

And yet, this is exactly the approach that Chandler ends up using. Except that he performs zero numerical analysis. He merely states that the acceleration is close enough to 'g' to warrant saying that there were "no" resisting forces. He is wrong.

An easier, more informative analysis would be to perform a competent energy balance analysis. He doesn't do this.

Can you point out the "multiple erroneous statements" in Chandler's presentation?

Sure. A brief sampling...

One of the cornerstones of any competent analysis is the correct identification of the various components of the systems that you are modeling. Chandler fails at this. He misidentifies the objects of his analysis. He constantly refers to the north wall as "the building".

A requirement of any competent analysis is researching, understanding & accurately portraying the work of other researchers. Chandler fails at this. He repeatedly misrepresents the statements of NIST engineers.

"this destruction closely resembles a standard controlled demolition." Wrong.

2:30 "if [the building fell at close to gravitational acceleration] were true, this would be a 'smoking gun' for controlled demolition." Wrong.

3:15 "the fact that (the slope of the curve) is straight indicates that it is a uniform acceleration". Wrong. The fact that it is straight is a direct result of the fact that Chandler told the program to find a "linear fit". A linear fit to ANY velocity data (no matter how variable) will result in a constant (i.e., "uniform") acceleration.

3.35 "I focused on just the first few seconds, and the acceleration was essentially 'g'." Wrong. Chandler specifically, intentionally IGNORED the first 0.8 seconds of his data (1.75 seconds of NIST's data), where the acceleration was NOT 'g'. (The data that proves this lie is sitting right behind him on the screen, while he brazenly utters this lie. A lie that he KNOWS is a lie.)

This is Chandler's data, with NIST's data overlaid:

picture.php


Here is NIST's data:

picture.php


NIST did a far better job than Chandler at determining when the motion began. Of course, Chandler chooses to ignore when the motion really began.

This is not a bit of trivia. It changes Chandler's fundamental conclusions.

4:30 "9.88 m/sec^2 is closer to "g" than 9.8 m/sec^2". (g ≈ 9.81 m/sec^2)

4:35 NIST generated their 5.4 seconds in order to match their computer model. (NIST is explicitly clear about how they got 5.4 seconds, as shown in Fig 12-75, pg 601 of NCSTAR1-9 (vole 2, pdf pg 263). They tied it to explicit movements in the motion of the building. This is simply Chandler's "gee, I can't figure out where NIST got it's start point. It must be because they're frauds" nonsense.)

Mistake: "Sunder's statements are a lie. All it takes to expose the lie is someone with a physics background … to expose the lie." It takes someone with a structural engineering background to understand & competently analyze the data & to draw knowledgeable, informed, competent conclusions. A high school physics teacher has none of the necessary experience, training or knowledge.

That's just a few of the numerous errors in the first video. Do you want me to go thru the second one too?


tom

PS. Why do you walk away from discussions once your assertions have been shown to be baseless, rather than addressing the issues presented to you like a person of integrity, a person honestly searching for the truth, would do?
 
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