Catholic Church Wealth

[jimmygun]

Tonight I was talking to my wife about the pope and his failing health. I said they will have to elect a pope with 6 fingers on each hand to wear all the rings he has. I also told her that the Catholic church was one of if not the wealthiest groups in the world with holdings of property worth billions all around the world.

The reason I stated this is that when a diocese in Calgary was found responsible for the sexual misconduct of its priests and was ordered by the courts to pay out several million dollars to its victims, the diocese claimed bancruptcy and the church itself refused to hand over the money owed.

I need to find some site which will list the holdings of the church to back up my claim. Can anyone direct me to such a site?

 

[Graham]

Related but not directly . . .

We live in a rented house and I guess the previous tenants were dutiful Catholics 'cos we're still on the mailing list for the local parish.

We get everything - prayer requests, overseas mission crap, tacky christmas cards, the works. Something arrives at least once a week (not in the mail though, they must hand deliver it but I've never been able to catch them at it, more's the pity).

Anyway, it recently came time of the year to elect the parish committee and one of the enclosed documents was a copy of the parish accounts for the previous year. If I can find it when I get home, I'll scan it and post it, it made interesting reading.

The local parish is in a busy, suburban area but would by no means be huge, on the scale of things. there would be plenty of larger parishes even in this city alone.

They began by stating that the accounts excluded the first collection, which went to support aged or disabled priest and the second which went to overseas missions (I think). They then showed their gross income and took away expenses, activities, major purchases, etc.

By the time it was all totted up they were left with a clear profit of over €50,000 for the year. Needless to say, there was no mention of where that went . . .

Now factor that up by the number of parishes in Ireland, Europe and the world. Granted, I'm sure a huge number of them don't make that much but I'm sure a fair number of them make far more.

Bill Gates can only dream about making that kind of money.

Graham

 

[Graham]

Here's a link to a similar set of accounts for a church in Texas.

Note they project a deficit for the upcoming year, in defiance of precedent!

The finances of the church as a whole are notoriously difficult to estimate. The Vatican is a sovereign state, remember, and has its own bank, it's own solicitors and its own insurance company. They are, quite literally, a law unto themselves.

At best you might find third-party estimates of their resources but they're really just guessing, IMO.

Graham

 

[Landis]

The Boston area Archdiocese has hinted that they may have to file bankruptcy rather than settle the claims of the victims of Molesting Priest. I believe the claims were approximately 26 million dollars. In a news story, it was revealed that the Catholic Church in Boston (alone) had received over 125 million dollars in private property donations. In the report there were many lavish mansions which would serve no purpose for the church other than to house priest like kings. When the reporter hinted that maybe they could sell off some of the property, the only answer he got was "the sound of crickets".

Now, think about this. When old superstitious wealthy Catholics are about to die, they become frightened that maybe some of their greedish deeds in life might prevent them from getting into heaven. To assuage this guilt, they donate their mansions to the church with the hopes of a free admission ticket into Heaven.

The end result is that a multi-million dollar property that was generating revenue for the city through property taxes is now a tax free property of the church. The $125 milliion in propety would generate well over a million dollars in property taxes that could help pay for police, fire, schools, etc. Now extend this out to the entire country and see how much money is being deprived from municipalities. We probably wouldn't have a budget deficit if all church properties could be taxed.

 

[woodguard]

I think the trouble here is the diocese don’t own the property, they hold it in trust for members.
The diocese only manage( or mismanage) the resource of the diocese.

Most chruchs work this way.

 

[Quasi]

The church is the largest land owner on earth. There are over two billion roman catholics, by far the largest religion and it is the fastest growing religion as well. If you consider the 15% tithe (you pay 15% of your annual salary to the church) that is an enormous amount of money, although this is voluntary, even a quarter of believers donating is huge. Plus the equity on the property, the political gifts (its all tax free, and priests are subject to "Canon" law or the church law,) its a pretty sweet deal. The church can also physically threaten you and your family in order to extort money "If you don't believe you are going to hell, where you will burn for all eternity!" They make the mafia look like dumb small time crooks. Right now there are four known child molester priests walking the streets free, without any fear of jail because the church holds an enormous amount of political clout in Boston. The idea that Omalley could not cough up more money is silly. They could have paid a billion and would still be fine.

 

[ceo_esq]

The issue of the Catholic Church's wealth was explored in some depth in this thread:

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10269

Church wealth and the sources thereof are not what most people would imagine. The Vatican (whose financial statements are discussed in the linked thread) frequently operates at a deficit, as do many dioceses.

Couldn't resist a closer examination of this last post:

Originally posted by Quasi
The church is the largest land owner on earth.

I can't imagine it owns even a fraction as much land as, say, the United States government. Did you mean the largest private landowner? Are you aggregating the landholdings of the various independent entities affiliated with the Catholic Church? Where did you get this notion, anyway?

Originally posted by Quasi
There are over two billion roman catholics, by far the largest religion

There are roughly two billion Christians, including Catholics and all other denominations combined.

Originally posted by Quasi
and it is the fastest growing religion as well.

It's certainly not growing as fast as Islam.

Originally posted by Quasi
If you consider the 15% tithe (you pay 15% of your annual salary to the church) that is an enormous amount of money, although this is voluntary, even a quarter of believers donating is huge.

Tithing is not a Catholic practice. If anywhere near a quarter of Catholics donated even 5% of their incomes to the Church, it would represent a radical change in the Church's fortunes.

Originally posted by Quasi
The idea that Omalley could not cough up more money is silly. They could have paid a billion and would still be fine.

What makes you think the archdiocese has an easy billion in liquid disposable assets at hand? Also, I think it's worth at least considering the potential repercussions of holding a fire sale of the assets of a major charitable institution. A bishop might hypothetically be able to sell off to a property developer the buildings housing the soup kitchen, the daycare center, the free clinic and the nursing home in order to satisfy a small group of creditors, but is it necessarily in the public interest for that to happen?

 

[Landis]

A bishop might hypothetically be able to sell off to a property developer the buildings housing the soup kitchen, the daycare center, the free clinic and the nursing home in order to satisfy a small group of creditors, but is it necessarily in the public interest for that to happen?

In the program I saw on the news, the property represented was a large mansion in an exclusive neighborhood. I would bet there is no soup kitchen there.

 

[Walter Wayne]

Most dioceses are somewhat independant of other dioceses. Cash can be donated back in forth if one church is in dire straights, but they are seperate corporate entities from each other and the vatican. I don't know how large the RC diocese is in the calgary area, but it likely draws from a relatively small population that isn't nearly religous as some parts of the world.

In addition by law, non-profit organizations in Canada have to account for donations in a particular way. If the donar doesn't specify what his money is for, then it goes into a general fund. But if the donar tells the church it can only be used for the "promotion of hedonism" fund then the church is obliged to either a)use for that purpose, or b)refuse the donation. Thus at the same time cash is increased, an accounts payable is generated so a net 0 gain in wealth results. This may affect the churches ability to pay off such liablilties (one would have to talk to a lawyer about that).

In the church I attend (not RC) the diocese had very few assets. A small office, a few computers and some theological books. It principly paid the salary of a few bishops, gave a small amount of financial assistance to small parishes, etc. In some instances RC dioceses do own some property used by the parish, but I do not know how widespread that is.

Walt

 

[jimmygun]

It is interesting that the Catholic Church can and did move offending priests from one parish to another without telling anyone. They aided and abetted the sexual exploitation of children on a nation wide scale and when the offender is caught and brought to justice and the church found finacially responsible they claim it is a matter only for the individual diocese.

Pretty sweet that the national and world church gets all the perks but none of the responsibility huh?

 

[Star Of The Sea]

The church is the largest land owner on earth. There are over two billion roman catholics, by far the largest religion and it is the fastest growing religion as well. If you consider the 15% tithe (you pay 15% of your annual salary to the church) that is an enormous amount of money, although this is voluntary, even a quarter of believers donating is huge. Plus the equity on the property, the political gifts (its all tax free, and priests are subject to "Canon" law or the church law,) its a pretty sweet deal. The church can also physically threaten you and your family in order to extort money "If you don't believe you are going to hell, where you will burn for all eternity!" They make the mafia look like dumb small time crooks. Right now there are four known child molester priests walking the streets free, without any fear of jail because the church holds an enormous amount of political clout in Boston. The idea that Omalley could not cough up more money is silly. They could have paid a billion and would still be fine.

Dear me, I burst out lauging at this... just like a Jack Chick comic book. utter nonsense.

be well
Luke