Can we eliminate predation?

[RandFan]

I'm having a debate in politics and someone has suggested that it is possible to eliminate predation. In other words stop lions, tigers, cougars, jaguars, cheetahs, panthers, polar bears, black bears, brown bears, hyenas, jackals, alligators, crocodiles, piranha, sharks, killer whales, eagles, falcons, owls, cobras, mambas, rattle snakes (this is a very tiny list) from killing and eating other animals.

Is this even theoretical possible? When Mao killed the majority of sparrows in China during the great leap forward it caused an environmental crisis for the Chinese. Could we truly stop every single predator from killing and eating animals?

 

[LucyR]

I'm having a debate in politics and someone has suggested that it is possible to eliminate predation.

There are a lot of posts in that thread. Could you direct me to the relevant one?

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

There are a lot of posts in that thread. Could you direct me to the relevant one?

Sorry,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1871024845#post1871024845

RandFan
Predators like to pick on the weakest or slowest. There really are no handicapped or sickly animals in the wild because they are the number one source for dinner.

Batman Jr.
I don't know. They are very difficult problems to solve.

Originally posted by RandFan
Difficult? How about impossible? Entire eco systems rely on a balance of kill or be killed. These are not solvable problems.

Batman Jr.
Prove that they are not solvable.

 

[El_Spectre]

I'm having a debate in politics and someone has suggested that it is possible to eliminate predation. In other words stop lions, tigers, cougars, jaguars, cheetahs, panthers, polar bears, black bears, brown bears, hyenas, jackals, alligators, crocodiles, piranha, sharks, killer whales, eagles, falcons, owls, cobras, mambas, rattle snakes (this is a very tiny list) from killing and eating other animals.

Is this even theoretical possible? When Mao killed the majority of sparrows in China during the great leap forward it caused an environmental crisis for the Chinese. Could we truly stop every single predator from killing and eating animals?

Sure... find a species with a very specialized prey (insects do this a lot) and get rid of all the prey... Of course, you're destroying a complex ecosystem, but what the hell...

BTW, why in the world would we want to eliminate predation?

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Sure... find a species with a very specialized prey (insects do this a lot) and get rid of all the prey... Of course, you're destroying a complex ecosystem, but what the hell...

BTW, why in the world would we want to eliminate predation?

Apparently it is a problem for some. It causes feelings of sadness.

 

[El_Spectre]

Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Apparently it is a problem for some. It causes feelings of sadness.

Not to mention feelings of "Ouch !!!" !

I take it this is a vegetarianism-is-more-moral argument?

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Not to mention feelings of "Ouch !!!" !

I take it this is a vegetarianism-is-more-moral argument?

Yup.

 

[El_Spectre]

Yup.

Eep. Well... that's a position that is more emotional than rational. How about: If we stopped predation, all animal life (and much of the plants) on the planet would die off in a matter of weeks. That can't be an improvement.

 

[El_Spectre]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Yup.

I notice you're also a SoCal people... you shoulda learned by now that there's no reasoning with the whackjobs that live around here

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Eep. Well... that's a position that is more emotional than rational. How about: If we stopped predation, all animal life (and much of the plants) on the planet would die off in a matter of weeks. That can't be an improvement.

The notion is beyond silly.

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

I notice you're also a SoCal people... you shoulda learned by now that there's no reasoning with the whackjobs that live around here

Where is Arizona Bay? And yes, I work with lot's of whackjobs. But ulitimately I don't care. I like people as long as they are decent. I can suffer fools. Can they suffer me? That's the question.

 

[El_Spectre]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Where is Arizona Bay? And yes, I work with lot's of whackjobs. But ulitimately I don't care. I like people as long as they are decent. I can suffer fools. Can they suffer me? That's the question.

I'm in Santa Monica... Arizona Bay is a reference to Bill Hicks (and Tool, who based several songs on him), a angry comic who died about 10 years ago. He did not like LA at all, and he fantasized about it breaking off and sinking into the ocean... leaving "The cool, serene beauty of Arizona Bay..."

The tool lyrics can be seen here. I'm not that negative, but as I drive down the streets here (awash with trendy fashion places and fortune tellers), I sympathize

 

[Soapy Sam]

Next time the moon is up, take a long look.

That's probably what most predator free worlds look like.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm having a debate in politics and someone has suggested that it is possible to eliminate predation. In other words stop lions, tigers, cougars, jaguars, cheetahs, panthers, polar bears, black bears, brown bears, hyenas, jackals, alligators, crocodiles, piranha, sharks, killer whales, eagles, falcons, owls, cobras, mambas, rattle snakes (this is a very tiny list) from killing and eating other animals.

Seeing as how many animals have meat-only diets, I don't see how you could possibly do this for even one such species unless you either drove that predator to extinction (is that really the advocated solution?) or if you just did the killing for them. If you're slaughtering cows to feed your pet lion, that's not exactly predation. But if it's just the killing of animals that's objectionable, then that doesn't really advance the cause very much.

But no, it's not possible. Forget large animals: can you even conceive of trying to stop insect predation? Hell, we have trouble even just controlling insect populations, how are we ever going to control their behavior? And we sure can't wipe them out completely: extermination of major insect species would be an ecological disaster of unprecedented proportions, if it's even doable. I for one would prefer not to start tearing up the floorboards of the boat I'm sailing in.

 

[BracesForImpact]

Yes, it is possible. Just sit all the animals down and have a nice conversation, and offer them SPAM.

Where's the roll eyes smiley? Oh, there it is.

Problem solved.

 

[tracer]

If we stopped predation, all animal life (and much of the plants) on the planet would die off in a matter of weeks.

Only if you include the eating of plants in your definition of "predation".

If we stopped predation -- where I define predation as the killing and eating of animals by other animals -- then all carnivorous animal life on the planet would die from starvation, and the resulting population explosions in many of the formerly-prey animal species would cause their own problems. Eventually, the new ecosystem will settle down into its new equilibrium ... and, inevitably, some new carnivorous species will evolve to fill the ecological niche left open by the disappearance of all the previous predators.

So, no, you can't stop predation. At least not permanently.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

We can eliminate some predation, yes. Humans do not kill the weakest, slowest, animals, but have entire populations to annihilate at will.

BTW, I consider that the rest of the animals deserve the same respect as humans. But forget about that.

It should be possible to design artificial food (there was a thread about that I think). Let the rest of the animals to behave as they need, I believe we should not cause any unnecessary pain or suffering to them.

Am I wrong? Depends who you ask.

 

[El_Spectre]

We can eliminate some predation, yes. Humans do not kill the weakest, slowest, animals, but have entire populations to annihilate at will.

BTW, I consider that the rest of the animals deserve the same respect as humans. But forget about that.

It should be possible to design artificial food (there was a thread about that I think). Let the rest of the animals to behave as they need, I believe we should not cause any unnecessary pain or suffering to them.

Am I wrong? Depends who you ask.

What exactly is artificial food? Just plants, or do we have to leave them alone too? Last I checked, no animals but microorganisms can survive without killing.

Incidently, we specifically raise those 'entire populations' just SO we can kill them (I'm thinking of cattle, chickens, etc.). What's wrong with that? Cows are killed in a split second... they don't even have time to be scared (nor do they have the intelligence to understand what is going on), so it's nice and humane (bovane?).

I just don't understand this concept of ignoring the food chain because some folks are squeamish about blood...

 

[CurtC]

Re: Re: Re: Can we eliminate predation?

Sorry,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1871024845#post1871024845

What's the deal? I've seen this before, where someone posts a link to a thread here, and that link is at the forums.randi.org domain. However, the threads that I view are all at the www.randi.org domain, under /vbulletin.

When I click on your link, it doesn't recognize me or any of my settings. I always view threads with avatars and signatures turned off, but in your link they're all there. Also, I can't reply to that thread without logging in first. In fact, if I go find that thread manually, it's here:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61006&perpage=40&pagenumber=5

What's the deal with the different domains?

 

[El_Spectre]

Only if you include the eating of plants in your definition of "predation".

If we stopped predation -- where I define predation as the killing and eating of animals by other animals -- then all carnivorous animal life on the planet would die from starvation, and the resulting population explosions in many of the formerly-prey animal species would cause their own problems. Eventually, the new ecosystem will settle down into its new equilibrium ... and, inevitably, some new carnivorous species will evolve to fill the ecological niche left open by the disappearance of all the previous predators.

So, no, you can't stop predation. At least not permanently.

You're right... I should have said "nearly all"... I was including the deliterious effects of unchecked prey species. Also, with predatory insects gone, the whole bug world would go berserk and lots of plant species would lose their pollinators, guardians, etc.