Can Disbelief Effect?

[Kumar]

Hello all,

I don't know whether it is a 'miss' for some vested interest, why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are never mentioned on skeptic & other sites.

The placebo effect as mentioned on your liked sites are the effects by 'belief', but disbelief should also be doing something in body. I was also bit thinking, why skeptics & believers are so firm on their respective views. By looking/considering their firmness & persistance somewhat equally on both sides, now it looks to me both can be right as per their real experiances. Vested interest, manipulations, fights etc. always shows weaknesses of any negative side--alike Lie test. So it made me to think otherwise-- i.e. both may be experiancing & getting/thinking effects as per their beliefs, non-beliefs & disbeliefs. So here are the following questions;

1. Why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are not mentioned on skeptic, quackwath or other sites?

2. What can be Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief?

3. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief be just opposite to so, so much called as "placebo/belief" effect/s?

4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??

The responsible factor may be differant, but we may be just fighting without understanding it.

You may understand it with or without me.

Your dynamic & justified discussions for both sides can yield somewhat new & different.

Best Wishes.

 

[Mojo]

Hello all,

I don't know whether it is a 'miss' for some vested interest, why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are never mentioned on skeptic & other sites.

The placebo effect as mentioned on your liked sites are the effects by 'belief', but disbelief should also be doing something in body. I was also bit thinking, why skeptics & believers are so firm on their respective views. By looking/considering their firmness & persistance somewhat equally on both sides, now it looks to me both can be right as per their real experiances. Vested interest, manipulations, fights etc. always shows weaknesses of any negative side--alike Lie test. So it made me to think otherwise-- i.e. both may be experiancing & getting/thinking effects as per their beliefs, non-beliefs & disbeliefs. So here are the following questions;

1. Why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are not mentioned on skeptic, quackwath or other sites?

2. What can be Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief?

3. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief be just opposite to so, so much called as "placebo/belief" effect/s?

4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??

The responsible factor may be differant, but we may be just fighting without understanding it.

The potential effects of belief and disbelief are the same, because "disbelief" is nothing but a form of belief.

You may understand it with or without me.

"Without" will probably generate less confusion and more understanding.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Really, I should just post some fun answer, but Kumar is certainly not the only victim of this misunderstanding of the placebo effect. Of course most are able to ask in about 20 words, but still:

1. Why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are not mentioned on skeptic, quackwath or other sites?

2. What can be Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief?

3. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief be just opposite to so, so much called as "placebo/belief" effect/s?

The first three questions can be answered as follows: The effect of belief is only part of the complex that is called the placebo effect. This part can roughly be broken down to the following elements:

a) Actual improvement. Many disease cases have a smaller or larger psychosomatic element. If the patients believes he/she is under effective treatment, there may be an actual easing of psychosomatic symptoms.

b) Perceived improvement. Many symptoms, most dominantly pain, are quite subjective, and may be perceived as lessening upon the encouragement from what is believed to be effective treatment.

c) Reporting bias. Both the patient and the practitioner may be influenced by the expectance of improvement and report improvement that does not objectively happen.

It is clear that this effect can be negative also. If the patient or practitioner does not expect the medicine to work, actual improvements might be ignored or underreported, and if negative effects, for example side effects, are expected, any such effects may be overestimated, overreported, or completely unrelated effects may be attributed to the treatment.

Such negative effcts ARE treated in skeptical literature, and test protocols do address them. Double-blind test methods COMPARE the result of a medicine to placebo, and whether the placebo effect is positive or negative in a given instance is not important. What the test measures is the DIFFERENCE.

4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??

In my opinion, yes. However, this implies that you accept that their postulated effect is entirely due to placebo effect .

Hans

 

[Zep]

I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus! I DON'T believe in Santa Claus!

 

[PixyMisa]

Hello all,

I don't know whether it is a 'miss' for some vested interest, why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are never mentioned on skeptic & other sites.

The placebo effect as mentioned on your liked sites are the effects by 'belief', but disbelief should also be doing something in body. I was also bit thinking, why skeptics & believers are so firm on their respective views. By looking/considering their firmness & persistance somewhat equally on both sides, now it looks to me both can be right as per their real experiances. Vested interest, manipulations, fights etc. always shows weaknesses of any negative side--alike Lie test. So it made me to think otherwise-- i.e. both may be experiancing & getting/thinking effects as per their beliefs, non-beliefs & disbeliefs. So here are the following questions;

1. Why Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief are not mentioned on skeptic, quackwath or other sites?

2. What can be Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief?

3. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbelief be just opposite to so, so much called as "placebo/belief" effect/s?

4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??

The responsible factor may be differant, but we may be just fighting without understanding it.

You may understand it with or without me.

Your dynamic & justified discussions for both sides can yield somewhat new & different.

Best Wishes.

No.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

The potential effects of belief and disbelief are the same, because "disbelief" is nothing but a form of belief.

Do you mean to interpret in other words that sense & non-sense are same as sense it there in both?

"Without" will probably generate less confusion and more understanding.

I will give a chance to you. If you can, Pls carry on your postings in this thread without interaction with me with less confusion and more understanding. . No posting can also mean same but you decide.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Really, I should just post some fun answer, but Kumar is certainly not the only victim of this misunderstanding of the placebo effect. Of course most are able to ask in about 20 words, but still:

Thanks.


The first three questions can be answered as follows: The effect of belief is only part of the complex that is called the placebo effect. This part can roughly be broken down to the following elements:

a) Actual improvement. Many disease cases have a smaller or larger psychosomatic element. If the patients believes he/she is under effective treatment, there may be an actual easing of psychosomatic symptoms.

b) Perceived improvement. Many symptoms, most dominantly pain, are quite subjective, and may be perceived as lessening upon the encouragement from what is believed to be effective treatment.

c) Reporting bias. Both the patient and the practitioner may be influenced by the expectance of improvement and report improvement that does not objectively happen.

Which of above come under "self healing ", "aquired immunities" & "initiated self healings by some healing substances". Pls tell in accordance with disease & disorder by others(as virus,bacterias et.) & by self (physiological disorders as imbalances of minerals, vitamins, pH etc.)

It is clear that this effect can be negative also. If the patient or practitioner does not expect the medicine to work, actual improvements might be ignored or underreported, and if negative effects, for example side effects, are expected, any such effects may be overestimated, overreported, or completely unrelated effects may be attributed to the treatment.

How practitioner can be involved in getting "placebo effect" by patients? Why practitioner will give & then expect medicine may not work? Anyway, can we call it as an effect due to disbelief?

Such negative effcts ARE treated in skeptical literature, and test protocols do address them. Double-blind test methods COMPARE the result of a medicine to placebo, and whether the placebo effect is positive or negative in a given instance is not important. What the test measures is the DIFFERENCE.

Do we have any data of tests & studies, where DB persons kept strong belief, remained neutral & kept strong disbelief in those substances used to test?

4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??

In my opinion, yes. However, this implies that you accept that their postulated effect is entirely due to placebo effect .

I mentioned 'healing substances'(mean all), but I think you meant for energy based healing substances(EBHS). Whether postulated effect is entirely due to placebo effect is a differant story, but these EBHS can be senstive or delicate effects ( as real, side,adverse effects etc.), so possibilities can be there of; 'effects with belief' AND "no effects by disbelief". Is it ok?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Which of above come under "self healing ", "aquired immunities" & "initiated self healings by some healing substances". Pls tell in accordance with disease & disorder by others(as virus,bacterias et.) & by self (physiological disorders as imbalances of minerals, vitamins, pH etc.)

None of them. As I said, those mentioned are the PART of the placebo effect that pertain to belief. Other things that are usually bundled in with the placebo effect is natural healing and effect of clinical advice. Aquired immunities will, of course, come under self-healing; apart from trauma and poisoning, very few diseases self-heal without the immunity system playing a role. Healing by healing substances is obviously NOT placebo effect.

How practitioner can be involved in getting "placebo effect" by patients?

Please, Kumar: READ my responses, OK? The practitioner, expecting an effect, will interpret the feedback from the patient accordingly. This is one reason the placebo effect also works for babies and animals.

Why practitioner will give & then expect medicine may not work? Anyway, can we call it as an effect due to disbelief?

I don't know why a practitioner should give a medicine he/she does not expect to work, but you asked about possile effects of disbelief. However, some patients may insist on a certain treatment. I would prefer to call it a negative belief effect.

Do we have any data of tests & studies, where DB persons kept strong belief, remained neutral & kept strong disbelief in those substances used to test?

Yes. There have been made studies where both groups eceived placebo, but where one group was convinced that it was a very potent medicine, whereas the others were either not told anything or told that it was placebo. This is one of reasons we know that the placebo effect exists.

[color=sky blue]4. Can Psychological & Physiological Effects of Disbeliefs & Beliefs be a true cause/reason of non-working & working of healing substances esp. 'energy based healing substances'??[/color]

In my opinion, yes. However, this implies that you accept that their postulated effect is entirely due to placebo effect .

I mentioned 'healing substances'(mean all), but I think you meant for energy based healing substances(EBHS).

It is essentialy true for any healing substance (or intervention): If you say that lack of belief can cancel its effect, you have acknowledged that its effect is due to the placebo effect. I am here talking of controlled tests.

Whether postulated effect is entirely due to placebo effect is a differant story, but these EBHS can be senstive or delicate effects ( as real, side,adverse effects etc.), so possibilities can be there of; 'effects with belief' AND "no effects by disbelief". Is it ok?

You are putting way too much into this; belief may strengthen or weaken the perceived effect of a medicine, but if the medicine has a real effect, it will show.

The problem with things like homeopathy is that the whole system is built on reporting bias: If the patient gets better, it is due to the remedy. If the patient gets worse, it is aggravation. If nothing changes, then the remedy is not a perfect similum, so a new one is tried, and we return to square one. It is a system where ANYTHING that happens will be construed to support the system.

Edited to add: I am realizing that I am being untrue to my own signature .

Hans

 

[Luke T.]

If my disbelief (negative thoughts) affect the success of a psychic reading, what would happen if I disbelieved my disbelieving affected the success of a psychic reading?

 

[joesixpack]

Will disbelief in gravity effect the outcome of an experiment measuring acceleration in a gravitational feild? Will disbelief in germs prevent you from getting influenza? Will disbelief in magnetic attraction reduce the force holding two magnets together? Belief can only effect one's behaviour and perception, not the physical world.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Edited to add: I am realizing that I am being untrue to my own signature .

Hans

Yes, it is not clear to me.

None of them. As I said, those mentioned are the PART of the placebo effect that pertain to belief. Other things that are usually bundled in with the placebo effect is natural healing and effect of clinical advice. Aquired immunities will, of course, come under self-healing; apart from trauma and poisoning, very few diseases self-heal without the immunity system playing a role. Healing by healing substances is obviously NOT placebo effect.

I meant how self healings, immunities, initiated self healings etc. are covered in three points mentioned by you. Furthur, What proportions of all disorders can be by self healings+ induced/encouraged or initiated self healing power of body AND by direct effect on any disorder or disease causing factor or pathogen? I mean, how much can be treated by initiating self healing power of body AND how much by direct effect on cause of disease/disorder?

Yes. There have been made studies where both groups eceived placebo, but where one group was convinced that it was a very potent medicine, whereas the others were either not told anything or told that it was placebo. This is one of reasons we know that the placebo effect exists.

I meant about data; when a real medicine is given to believer, neutral & disbeliever in that medicine.

You are putting way too much into this; belief may strengthen or weaken the perceived effect of a medicine, but if the medicine has a real effect, it will show.

But still, can there can be any differance in magnitude of real effect to a believer, a neutral person & a disbeliever in that medicine & system. We see differanciating effects due differant doctors, differant paitients..of same medicine with same condition. Is it not so?

Since EBHS alike homeopathy, can be so minute/delicate/instant real effects, magnitude of belief & disbelief can make it an effect or a no effect. Whereas modern medicines can be so gross/strong/continious & prolonged real effects, belief & disbelief can't do 'no effect' completely.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Edited to add

Hans,

You really need to learn to edit your posts.



Kumar,

The "placebo effect" is not an effect in the sense that it has no causal effectivity, this is, there is no proof at all about someone getting better BECAUSE of the "placebo effect". Some subjects might report feeling better, but thats completly subjective, sometimes unrelated to any objective changes in their condition.

Of course the same goes for disbelief in the treatment, someone can doubt with all his heart that a vaccine will not prevent him from being sick, yet, the vaccine will do its work, again and again. In other words will have causal effectivity beyond the claimed "power" of beliefs.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Yes, it is not clear to me.

My signature? It means: "A wise man does not pee against the wind".

I meant how self healings, immunities, initiated self healings etc. are covered in three points mentioned by you. Furthur, What *snip*

You mean you did not understand the answer, or you did not bother to read it? Too bad, pal.

I meant about data; when a real medicine is given to believer, neutral & disbeliever in that medicine.

You mean you did not understand the answer, or you did not bother to read it? Too bad, pal.

But still, can there can be any differance in magnitude of real effect to a believer, a neutral person & a disbeliever in that medicine & system. We see differanciating effects due differant doctors, differant paitients..of same medicine with same condition. Is it not so?

You mean you did not understand the answer, or you did not bother to read it? Too bad, pal.

Since EBHS alike homeopathy, can be so minute/delicate/instant real effects, magnitude of belief & disbelief can make it an effect or a no effect. Whereas modern medicines can be so gross/strong/continious & prolonged real effects, belief & disbelief can't do 'no effect' completely.

Nonsense. If there was a real effect, we'd see it.

Hans

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Hans

Seriously, one never knows what is the quoted text and what is what you are saying. Learn to edit Hans, its just basic cut and paste!

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Hans,

You really need to learn to edit your posts.



Kumar,

The "placebo effect" is not an effect in the sense that it has no causal effectivity, this is, there is no proof at all about someone getting better BECAUSE of the "placebo effect". Some subjects might report feeling better, but thats completly subjective, sometimes unrelated to any objective changes in their condition.

Of course the same goes for disbelief in the treatment, someone can doubt with all his heart that a vaccine will not prevent him from being sick, yet, the vaccine will do its work, again and again. In other words will have causal effectivity beyond the claimed "power" of beliefs.

The effects can be via body's healing power And direct. If I am not wrong, antibiotics effects via body's healing power. It may sometimes be confusing, whether a cure/treatment is by body or direct. Healing substance can initiate body healing power & then body do that work. Its magnitude can be more or less, instant & slow, soft o hard, short time or long time etc. So Keeping belief or disbelief can effect this initiation-so effect or no effect depending upon magnitude & type of initiation by any healing substance. It also depend upon property of substance---if body can go along with healing substance or overpower it OR if substance can go against body power & can oer power it. Adaptability of body towards any substance depening on its quantity can also be important. You can't think that body can overpower a strong poision in sufficient quantity but you can expect very low quantity or to sugar, body can overpower. So I think belief & disbelief can effect upto a certan level & if that level is more than the level of effect of substance then effect & if low then no effect. In case of modern medicines this effect can mostly be on higher side whereas it is low in case of EBHS.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Seriously, one never knows what is the quoted text and what is what you are saying.

Normal text, original post, bold text, my comments

Learn to edit Hans, its just basic cut and paste!

It IS? Well, waddaya know!

When I make detailed answers to post, my replies are in bold, see above. I have used this for a couple of years, on several forums. Most people have no difficulties with it. In fact, even Kumar understands, so I guess with a little bit of effort, you can, too .


Hans

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

Do you mean to interpret in other words that sense & non-sense are same as sense it there in both?

Disbelief (i.e. the belief that something will not work) is just as much a belief as the belief that something will work. It is not the same as a lack of belief.

"Nonsense" means "lacking sense." It is not the same thing as for example, information with the opposite meaning. There is no information in nonsense.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Disbelief Effect?

The effects can be via body's healing power And direct

"Healing power"? Do you mean the immune system? Few medicines except vaccinations work via that.

If I am not wrong, antibiotics effects via body's healing power.

Unfortunately, you are indeed wrong. Antibiotics work by being poisonous to germs.

It may sometimes be confusing, whether a cure/treatment is by body or direct.

Only for somebody who consistently refuses to listen to explanations, like YOU.

Healing substance can initiate body healing power & then body do that work.

Only vaccines and serums.

Its magnitude can be more or less, instant & slow, soft o hard, short time or long time etc. So Keeping belief or disbelief can effect this initiation-so effect or no effect depending upon magnitude & type of initiation by any healing substance.

Nonsense. An effective medicine works, whether you believe in it or not.

It also depend upon property of substance---if body can go along with healing substance or overpower it OR if substance can go against body power & can oer power it. Adaptability of body towards any substance depening on its quantity can also be important. You can't think that body can overpower a strong poision in sufficient quantity but you can expect very low quantity or to sugar, body can overpower. So I think belief & disbelief can effect upto a certan level & if that level is more than the level of effect of substance then effect & if low then no effect. In case of modern medicines this effect can mostly be on higher side whereas it is low in case of EBHS.

No, the effect of modern medicines is real, the effect of homeopathic medicines is zero.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Conclusion

In view of less fights in this topic, It appears it is a common/normal understanding that;

If belief so hunger & willingness is there, you will keep your mouth open & eat with willingness, which will also benefit due to various body's cephalic & other processes. On the other side, if you keep no belief or keep disbelief, no hunger, no willingness & aversions will be there, so you will close you mouth loosely or tightly & so will neither eat nor will get its all beneficial effect. Forced/unnatural/tube feedings can also effect, which can also open our mouth by force, but no effect, less beneficial effects, overeating, unwillingness, no cephalic type effects, accumulations, side/adverse/toxic effects can result by it. I think insulin resistance & other accumulations are good examples to this aspect.

Furthur, any ODD/UNNATURAL substance in quantity and/or in quality to which we are not habitual or adapted, can present differenciating effects-Therapeutic/Side/Adverse/Toxic depending upon its type, quality &/or quantity AND our adaption/habituality to it. In case of quantity, both higher & lower concentration of substance can be considered as ODD or UNNATURAL, since we are not commoly habitual or adapted to these both types & so both can present differanciating effects. But in case of higher concentration, we can expect direct or indirect, self or induced healing, strong or weak, slow or fast, forced & burdened, continious & prolonged, crude & gross type- Therapeutic effects with or without accumulations/side/adverse/toxic/shut mouth/unwillingness type effects & other adversities. In case of lower concentration, we can expect light & instant, minute, delicate, dilute or sensitive, open-mouth type with hunger & willingness, can or can't continious & prolonged, potentised or initiated, self healings type real effects without or with least accumulations/side/adverse/toxic effects or adversities.

We can also think & understand about ODDS & UNNATURALS substances in quality & types, accordingly.

Since, ODDs & UNNATURALs in higher concentrations (as indicated above) are strong, prolonged and/or forced, these will always/mostly show direct or indirect measurable less or more effects, depending upon belief, no belief or disbelief etc. whereas ODDs & UNNATURALs in lower concentrations being minute, light, delicate, senstive & can be similar, may or may not show real & indirect effects depending upon belief, no belief or disbelief etc.

Both have its good & bad points, so it can be a personal choice to decide accordingly. Nothing for the fight in this issue, should be there.

Best wishes.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Conclusion

*snipped: A lot of babble.*
Best wishes.

Translation: "I have not understood ONE word of whatever people have been trying to explain to me in this thread, so I will fall back to my usual position of sticking to my beliefs."


Good show, Kumar .




Hans