Can a skeptic believe in Karma?

[Senex]

I don't wish to discuss Dharmic religious beliefs, just the simple tenet "if you do good things, good things will happen to you — if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you." It makes it easier to get through the day when you wait your turn and see others not waiting theirs, that cosmic justice will become involved. I don't believe in god, satan, heaven or hell -- but I wish to believe that moral behavior is better than immoral behavior.


Penn Jillette, someone I admire (but not always, that rascal exposed "Cups and Balls" on the View. He was standing next to me when I spent $40 buying a fine Cups and Balls set at Lou Tannen's Magic Store when I was 12 years old but that's another story), has written one of the most popular "This I believe" essays on NPR. He only touches on this issue but I believe many people reading this who haven't read his essay yet will enjoy reading it.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

My question is if you are a skeptic, how do you feel about living a moral life when living a less than moral life may give you advantages you might never pay for in this life (and most likely any other life).

 

[Fnord]

[IMHO]

A skeptic can believe anything that he or she wants to, knows when to challenge the beliefs of others, and how to challenge his or her own. They can be fun at parties.


A hard-core skeptic, also called a cynic, challenges everyone and everything, anywhere, and at any time. They're not much fun at parties.


[/IMHO]

Your opinions may vary.

 

[Jon.]

I believe in karma, but I view it as a kind of credo consolans. I believe in it because it makes me feel better to think that stinkers like Slyvia Browne, Benny Hinn, Uri Geller et al. will eventually get their comeuppances.

 

[kellyb]

I believe that humans are social creatures, and things like the altruism instinct are evolutionarily advantageous, and that "antisocial" behavior can be a sign of mental unhealth.
So in that sense, there's a very un-paranormal quasi-karmic type force at work. (Lie all the time, and no one will take you seriously).

But as far as "cosmic force" type Karma goes, I've seen no evidence supporting the existence of this. I wish it existed, but have no reason to believe it actually does.

A hard-core skeptic, also called a cynic, challenges everyone and everything, anywhere, and at any time. They're not much fun at parties.

Am too!

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I throw around the term "karma", but only in a "you had it coming to you" kind of way. It is not a cosmic force.

I think being a good, moral person is it's own reward. I prefer to do good. I don't need any spiritual threat or carrot to lead me to this.

 

[Stellafane]

I don't really want to answer that question -- it might be, you know, bad luck or something...

 

[pspaddict]

Too many bad people get away with far too much and live a privileged life. Karma is a nice thought but between an honest person and a scoundrel, a scoundrel has the advantage since s/he's willing to do anything.

 

[Ashles]

A 'sceptic' can believe in anything - they don't necessarily apply their scepticism to that particular area.

No-one is a true 100% all the time sceptic - we all take some things on faith, so someone who is rabidly sceptic of claims about UFOs, bigfoot, leprechauns, astrology and the Loch Ness monster might believe in God.
But presumably they would be unlikely to claim they had evidence for God's existence.

Someone might be sceptical of all paranormal claims, but believe that there is a 9/11 conspiracy, or vice versa. Everyone is an emotional being with preconceptions and biases so everyone will have certain beliefs.

It just wouldn't be sceptical to claim karma definitely exists.

I believe this is a seperate question to why a sceptic or atheist might choose to live a 'moral' life, or at least (to avoid loaded language) a life in which you try not to cause emotional or physical harm to others.

 

[drkitten]

I don't wish to discuss Dharmic religious beliefs, just the simple tenet "if you do good things, good things will happen to you — if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you."

Of course they can. I'm a skeptic, and I believe in karma, in the same sense that Don Vito Corleone does.

"What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you."

or, alternatively,

"Someday - and that day may never come - I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, accept this justice as gift on my daughter's wedding day. "

People who are nice to other people tend to be able to call in favors. In a community of mostly friendly people, the number of favors you can call in -- and that will be paid when called upon -- tends to exceed the number of times you get stiffed.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

If you do good things for other people they are likely to do good things for you in return. If you do bad things to people, they are likely to do bad things to you in return.

This however does not guarantee that a nice person will have nice things happen to them, and a bad person have bad things happen to them.

I'm a classic example.

 

[CFLarsen]

Of course they can. I'm a skeptic, and I believe in karma, in the same sense that Don Vito Corleone does.

"What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And if by chance an honest man like yourself should make enemies, then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you."

or, alternatively,

"Someday - and that day may never come - I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, accept this justice as gift on my daughter's wedding day. "

People who are nice to other people tend to be able to call in favors. In a community of mostly friendly people, the number of favors you can call in -- and that will be paid when called upon -- tends to exceed the number of times you get stiffed.

Karma isn't about "do unto your friends so they do the same to you". Karma isn't about being rewarded for good behavior. Karma is all about doing good for the sake of doing good, and letting go of your worldly desires, which will get you out of the karmic wheel and attain Nirvana.

Which, of course, is unattainable: To get out of the karmic wheel, you have to stop desiring - including desiring to get out of the karmic wheel...

Also, Don Corleone often created the problems he would later help solving. That's hardly doing good, that's egotistical behavior.

 

[drkitten]

Karma isn't about "do unto your friends so they do the same to you". Karma isn't about being rewarded for good behavior. Karma is all about doing good for the sake of doing good, and letting go of your worldly desires, which will get you out of the karmic wheel and attain Nirvana.

Not in the original language.

"Karma" simply means "effect." There's been a lot of metaphysical claptrap associated with it, in the same way that a cross is simply a geometric shape, but The Cross is a symbol of Redemption from Suffering For All Who Repent and Believe. But you don't need to buy the metaphysics to believe in the geometry. (And, of course, there are actually a lot of different and incompatible sets of metaphysical claptrap associated with the word, depending upon whether your preferrred brand of claptrap is Hindu, Buddhisti, or Jainist -- and which variation.)

Also, Don Corleone often created the problems he would later help solving. That's hardly doing good, that's egotistical behavior.

Yeah, but if you were a dick to him, he wouldn't fix the problems he created and instead leave you to stew in them. Which still suggests that the effect of being nice to Don Corleone -- good karma -- is better than pissing him off and finding a horse's head in your bed.

 

[K-W]

Believing in something like Karma that is not in any way shape or form supported by evidence shows at the very least a suspension of skepticism, but as others have pointed out, one need not be 100% skeptical to lable oneself a skeptic.

As for how I feel about missing unethical opportunities, it depends on the situation. I feel nothing but happiness that I don't have an urge to hurt other people to attain things. On some less severe moral issues I sometimes regret that I miss out on opportunities.

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

how do you feel about living a moral life when living a less than moral life may give you advantages you might never pay for in this life (and most likely any other life)..

The original question wasn't about the established philosophy or religion, but simply how one feels about living a moral life when not doing so may be more rewarding.

To which, I've found it's not generally the case.
I find rewards for acting in what I consider a moral manner and there are social punishments for doing otherwise. I'm generally not willing to risk what might go wrong from doing something I consider immoral.

Or in the case of becoming a psychic myself and stealing from gullible people, I don't have the stomach for it. So whether it's simply my social conditioning or what... I'm more comfortable working for a modest income than attempting to live more comfortably in a sleazy fashion.

But I cheat on little things all the time and rationalize them however I need.

 

[JanisChambers]

Hmm, Well perhaps we could see Karma as some form of sociological concept. The accumulation of a reputation does have an effect of what type of company you keep (and what type keeps you). The very basic idea of having a moral system to to keep a close social order, something as social animals we seem to need.

 

[JanisChambers]

Believing in something like Karma that is not in any way shape or form supported by evidence shows at the very least a suspension of skepticism, but as others have pointed out, one need not be 100% skeptical to lable oneself a skeptic.

I wonder who here has met a 100% Non-Skeptic, someone who would believe anything someone would tell them.

 

[fuelair]

I believe in karma, but I view it as a kind of credo consolans. I believe in it because it makes me feel better to think that stinkers like Slyvia Browne, Benny Hinn, Uri Geller et al. will eventually get their comeuppances.

Well, with excrement like those, I believe in helping Karma along - for example, feeding them to a ravenous kraal of Kharma Khameleons!!!

 

[Cuddles]

It depends what you mean by "believe" and "karma". If you mean as some kind of spiritual force that ensures everyone gets what they deserve then no, you certainly can't believe that and still be a skeptic since there is no evidence whatsoever that such a thing exists or is even possible. On the other hand, if you simply mean that people tend to treat you the same way you treat them then yes. It's called reciprocal altruism, but it's really just common sense. If I'm nice to someone, they are more likely to be nice to me. Obviously it doesn't work 100% of the time, but in general it is true.

 

[I less than three logic]

I wonder who here has met a 100% Non-Skeptic, someone who would believe anything someone would tell them.

Those would be Douglas Adams' electronic monks that he wrote about in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.

From the wikipedia article on the book,

The Electric Monk was a labour-saving device, like a dishwasher or a video recorder. [...] Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you from what was becoming an increasingly onerous task." The Monk in the book was discarded by its owners due to a series of malfunctions that cause it to believe "all kinds of things, more or less at random", including things like the world being pink and God wanting a lot of money sent to a certain address.

ETA: I thought this was a good book, as I have with all of his books I've read. So, if you haven't read it, please stop at the spoiler warning on the wiki page and just assume the text I quoted is on there. Then proceed to go read the book. No sense in spoiling it for you.

 

[Mashuna]

I believe in Chicken Karma, but I prefer a Jalfrezi.