I was wondering what's the reasoning behind turning back to christianity? My theory is that when they "doubt their faith" in the first place, somehow they're unconvinced by atheism, and then after a couple of years they turn back to what used to be comfortable. Anyway, I don't mean to argue with anybody, it seemed like a good discussion topic.
Born again christians
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Keneke
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My theory is that two psychological forces, the desire for autonomy, and the desire for relief (from burdens), constantly battle with one another. Skeptics have very strong autonomy drives, and the faithful have very strong relief drive. As a person ages, these drives, along with other influences, change. A middle aged man is expected to supply his family, therefore he has been trained to have a hefty supply of autonomy (which also explains why most skeptics are middle aged men). As a person gets older the kids move out, you have less and less life left to save money for, and have more and more aches and pains. Your autonomy drive lessens as your relief drive increases. This accounts for older people being more religious.
Of course, there might be many more variables that cause action in people. Or maybe this phenomenon is already classified by psychologists. I'm just a dabbler, after all.
Of course, there might be many more variables that cause action in people. Or maybe this phenomenon is already classified by psychologists. I'm just a dabbler, after all.
specious_reasons
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My impression was that most "born again" people fall into two major categories:
1. Were "Christian", but not very religious, until they got a "shot in the arm" which caused their faith to be renewed.
2. Were not very religious at all, and were confronted with it.
I think that rational athiests turning to God is probably a very small set of people.
BTW, most evangelism isn't geared towards atheists, most evangelism is geared towards the church-going Christian. They're often trying to get people to be committed to the faith they already profess to believe.
1. Were "Christian", but not very religious, until they got a "shot in the arm" which caused their faith to be renewed.
2. Were not very religious at all, and were confronted with it.
I think that rational athiests turning to God is probably a very small set of people.
BTW, most evangelism isn't geared towards atheists, most evangelism is geared towards the church-going Christian. They're often trying to get people to be committed to the faith they already profess to believe.
fidiot said:
Or so the born again Christians would like you to think...
Actually, their main reasoning can be found mostly in Chick tracts. Their targets are former criminals (who may or may not have already been Christian), or anybody else who can be turned from a life of people beating to bible beating. Although technically their targets are anybody but themselves, it looks like they tend to have the most success with the "reformed criminal" crowd. It makes sense that people who were released from jail might regret their actions, and that a majority of these people would be uneducated, so when a guy comes by threatening damnation for bad actions, promising salvation from divine retribution, and passing out Chick tracts, guess who's likely to believe him.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
specious_reasons said:
I spent my childhood involved with fundementalist churches, and while it wasn't apparent at the time,
what you say, is glaring now.
They spend a lot of their time talking about backsliding, re-dedicating their lives to Jesus, struggling with the devil etc..
Why so much doubt, and the problem with sinning, after you recognize what it is?
What about Catholics, and all that 'confession' stuff? I mean, you find the truth, confess your sins (once) and start living a Christian life. Why such a struggle?
stamenflicker
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I think most all of you would serve this discussion best by providing a definition of born again Christian. So far, you're not even close.
Flick
Flick
SortingItAllOut
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S
fidiot said:
Hi fidot,
I believe I have a pretty good insight into this as I spent more than ten years of my life in an "evangelical" church.
The term "Born Again" is in reference to the third chapter of the book of John, where Jesus Christ is speaking with the Pharisee named Nicodemus. He's speaking of the Christian notion that man must be "born of the Spirit".
Anyway, that is the origin of the term.
Evangelicals often use the term "backsliding" to describe individuals who have fallen away from the church.
Now, I would agree in principle with your assessment for the most part. What tends to happen, at least it has been my experience that this happens, is that folks "get saved" and are excited about the decision that they've made. They are anxious to tell others about what they've done and this is encouraged by the church leadership. Then, sometime later, the "honeymoon" period is over and the realities of life creep back. They find themselves less enthusiastic about church, and might even question some things, particularly if the preacher is one of the "fire and brimstone" types that isn't particularly concerned with a touchy-feely sermon but rather preaches on things like tithing, the dangers of alcohol, abortion, infidelity, commitment to the church, envangelism, missions, etc.. The individuals *might* start questioning their original decision, but I don't think it is always that way.
It is all very fascinating to me.
Take care,
Sort
SortingItAllOut
Unregistered
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specious_reasons said:
I would certainly agree with the last section. In an evangelical church, "prospects" are important and most "witnesses" are ill equiped to witness to atheists, especially an atheist that has an entire grab bag of questions from which to pull "show stoppers".
It is far easier to get the "seeking" man to convert than it is the one who isn't searching for god.
Some evangelical churches have the notion of an "invitation" at the tail end of a service, where the minister makes a strong push for folks to walk down the aisle and make a decision. It has been my experience that most of the folks who walk down that aisle are either already professing christians, "backsliders" looking to renew their faith, or children or relatives of church members. Not always the case, but certainly the bulk of "aisle walkers" I've seen fall into those categories.
Take care,
Sort
specious_reasons
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Diogenes said:
I think I've mentioned this before, but my primary experience is from college, living with an evangelical Christian and dealing with the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship.
I thought that backsliding, continuing to sin, re-dedicating their life was part and parcel for Christianity, since no one is perfect, and the devil is always tempting them. I also thought confession was another way of coping with that.
Also, most of the fundamentalist churches basically think that only a select few of the people who think of themselves as "Christian" are really "saved". That's the viewpoint of IVCF, although IVCF only has one criteria, "accepting Jesus" to be saved. That's fairly liberal for Christianity. Of course, they think that the unwashed masses haven't done this, that's why they're drinking and having sex and listening to rock and roll music.
I could go on, but it's probably not appropriate for this thread.
Ummm... Isn't David Murray-O'Hare (son of the famous atheist) a born-again Christian? Might be interesting to look up in relation to this topic. I don't personally know of anyone who was a confirmed atheist becoming born-again. Well, none that have revealed it to me.
SortingItAllOut
Unregistered
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Diogenes said:
Hi Diogenes,
I guess my experience was that folks almost thrived on sermons that told them how poorly they were living up to the Christian ideal. For example, the evangelical church I have a history with would have a Sunday morning service, a "bible study" hour in the morning either before or after the service, a Sunday evening service, a Monday night witnessing meeting (where you end up going door-to-door to "prospects" who have visited the church), Wednesday night services, and usually one other night of the week for something like a "ministry" meeting. So, the minister would really stress that you should always be there "when the doors are open".
The minister would allude to some "other churches" in town that didn't stress such things and claimed that the ministers of those churches were mealy mouthed, compromising individuals. So the mood had been set that it was God's desire that folks be highly involved with the church, for example, and that kept them believing that they weren't doing a very good job at living the (impossible to live) christian life.
Take care,
Sort
SortingItAllOut
Unregistered
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specious_reasons said:
I believe that William Murray is his name. He is indeed a "born again Christian" and has spoken on several occasions at a church I have attended. He has a religious freedom business/ministry in a town not too far from where I grew up.
Also, on the notion that "accepting Jesus" is the one thing to do - yes, that is how it is presented - usually a four step process, but then it seems to get more and more involved.
Take care,
Sort
specious_reasons
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It's William Murray-O'Hair:
http://www.wjmurray.com/testimony.htm
(or just Willaim Murray, looks like he's dropped the O'Hair)
http://www.wjmurray.com/testimony.htm
(or just Willaim Murray, looks like he's dropped the O'Hair)
evildave
Unregistered
E
Basically, the ones who give me the following speech:
"Have you let Jesus into your life and become born again? I was a drug user (alcaholic/criminal/etc.), but then I found Jesus! And then I was weak and I associated with my old acquaintences and did more drugs (fell off the wagon/did more crime). Then something scary happened (usually in a car), and I KNEW it was God warning me. I've been clean ever since!"
... have colored my picture of "Born Again" all too fully.
And yes, I've been told this tale several times by different people in situations where I couldn't leave (i.e. waiting for laundry, public transportation, etc.)
It's like they all rehearse the same pathetic drool from a book and improvise the details. It just screams "Let Jesus into your life and be a loser just like me!" Like, maybe if I burn out enough brain cells some day, Christianity will have some appeal for me.
"Have you let Jesus into your life and become born again? I was a drug user (alcaholic/criminal/etc.), but then I found Jesus! And then I was weak and I associated with my old acquaintences and did more drugs (fell off the wagon/did more crime). Then something scary happened (usually in a car), and I KNEW it was God warning me. I've been clean ever since!"
... have colored my picture of "Born Again" all too fully.
And yes, I've been told this tale several times by different people in situations where I couldn't leave (i.e. waiting for laundry, public transportation, etc.)
It's like they all rehearse the same pathetic drool from a book and improvise the details. It just screams "Let Jesus into your life and be a loser just like me!" Like, maybe if I burn out enough brain cells some day, Christianity will have some appeal for me.
SortingItAllOut
Unregistered
S
evildave said:
I've heard it said from a church pulpit before that before one can be saved she has to be lost - the notion that until a person is in a place where they are searching for god, they won't find him. So, yes, folks who have hit rock bottom are prime candidates to be born again.
Take care,
Sort
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
Flick sez:
I think most all of you would serve this discussion best by providing a definition of born again Christian. So far, you're not even close.
--------------------------------------
I agree with Flick.
The thing that struck me most in my contacts with the Born-Agains was a belief I heard about several times; that they are forgiven when they are born again for all their past and future sins.
To some of them, this forgiveness for future sins apparently freed them to commit petty theft and other mean and hurtful acts, justified by already being absolved of their sins. Had to watch your wallet and your lunch box around them.
I did not meet anybody that carried this beyond petty acts. Fear of the legal system rather than fear of god, I expect.
I don't know if this is what Flick was getting at, but I had not seen it discussed yet.
I think most all of you would serve this discussion best by providing a definition of born again Christian. So far, you're not even close.
--------------------------------------
I agree with Flick.
The thing that struck me most in my contacts with the Born-Agains was a belief I heard about several times; that they are forgiven when they are born again for all their past and future sins.
To some of them, this forgiveness for future sins apparently freed them to commit petty theft and other mean and hurtful acts, justified by already being absolved of their sins. Had to watch your wallet and your lunch box around them.
I did not meet anybody that carried this beyond petty acts. Fear of the legal system rather than fear of god, I expect.
I don't know if this is what Flick was getting at, but I had not seen it discussed yet.
stamenflicker
Unregistered
S
I think moving to William James on pyschological nature of conversion, especially in relation to the sick soul, would be of use to many of you. I also recommend Loder's "The Transforming Momement."
Fact or fiction, some of you are managing to mock a concept you've not bothered to study.
Flick
Fact or fiction, some of you are managing to mock a concept you've not bothered to study.
Flick
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
stamenflicker said:
We'll try to clear our discussion topic with you next time flick...
Since we are so in need, of your enlightened input, why don't you contribute instead of giving us homework..
Hint: This a forum where skeptics talk about things they are skeptical of. Opposing opinions are always welcome..
P.S.
i.e.. your original comment..
Who would best be served notwithstanding, there may have been a misapplication of of the
term " born again ", when considered from a 'Born Again' Christian's viewpoint.
But it was apparent to most of us, ( who bothered to read between the lines) that fidiot was
referring to 'twice' or more, 'Born Again' Christians'
I just felt I should share this . . .
Far away in the tropical waters of the Caribbean, two prawns were swimming around in the sea - one called Justin and the other called Christian.
The prawns were constantly being harassed and threatened by sharks that patrolled the area. Finally one day Justin said to Christian, "I'm bored and frustrated at being a prawn, I wish I was a shark, then I wouldn't have any worries about being eaten..."
As Justin had his mind firmly on becoming a predator, a mysterious cod appears and says, "Your wish is granted", and lo and behold,
Justin turned into a shark. Horrified, Christian immediately swam away, afraid of being eaten by his old mate.
Time went on and Justin found himself becoming bored and lonely as a shark. All his old mates simply swam away whenever he came close to them. Justin didn't realise that his new menacing appearance was the cause of his sad plight.
While out swimming alone one day he sees the mysterious cod again and can't believe his luck. Justin figured that the fish could change him back into a prawn. He begs the cod to change him back so, lo and behold, he is turned back into a prawn.
With tears of joy in his tiny little eyes, Justin swam back to his friends and bought them all a cocktail. (The punch line does not involve a prawn cocktail - it's much worse). Looking around the gathering at the reef, he searched for his old pal. "Where's Christian?" he asked. "He's at home, distraught that his best friend changed sides to the enemy and became a shark", came the reply.
Eager to put things right again and end the mutual pain and torture, he set off to Christian's house. As he opened the coral gate the memories came flooding back. He banged on the door and shouted, "It's me, Justin, your old friend, come out and see me again."
Christian replied "No way man, you'll eat me. You're a shark, the enemy and I'll not be tricked. "
Justin cried back "No, I'm not. That was the old me. I've changed."
Wait for it
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"I've seen Cod. I'm a prawn again Christian".
Far away in the tropical waters of the Caribbean, two prawns were swimming around in the sea - one called Justin and the other called Christian.
The prawns were constantly being harassed and threatened by sharks that patrolled the area. Finally one day Justin said to Christian, "I'm bored and frustrated at being a prawn, I wish I was a shark, then I wouldn't have any worries about being eaten..."
As Justin had his mind firmly on becoming a predator, a mysterious cod appears and says, "Your wish is granted", and lo and behold,
Justin turned into a shark. Horrified, Christian immediately swam away, afraid of being eaten by his old mate.
Time went on and Justin found himself becoming bored and lonely as a shark. All his old mates simply swam away whenever he came close to them. Justin didn't realise that his new menacing appearance was the cause of his sad plight.
While out swimming alone one day he sees the mysterious cod again and can't believe his luck. Justin figured that the fish could change him back into a prawn. He begs the cod to change him back so, lo and behold, he is turned back into a prawn.
With tears of joy in his tiny little eyes, Justin swam back to his friends and bought them all a cocktail. (The punch line does not involve a prawn cocktail - it's much worse). Looking around the gathering at the reef, he searched for his old pal. "Where's Christian?" he asked. "He's at home, distraught that his best friend changed sides to the enemy and became a shark", came the reply.
Eager to put things right again and end the mutual pain and torture, he set off to Christian's house. As he opened the coral gate the memories came flooding back. He banged on the door and shouted, "It's me, Justin, your old friend, come out and see me again."
Christian replied "No way man, you'll eat me. You're a shark, the enemy and I'll not be tricked. "
Justin cried back "No, I'm not. That was the old me. I've changed."
Wait for it
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"I've seen Cod. I'm a prawn again Christian".
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Good one!!!