Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

[Darat]

Northern Ireland is experiencing some of its worse violence for many years and why? Because a "religious" group can't march down a certain street because there would be clashes with a different "religious" group...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4233850.stm

Is Christianity at the heart of this?

Seems to be an almost silly question but the communities divide themselves by which particular sect of Christianity they belong to. Would this violence exist, would it be started if Christianity wasn’t involved?

 

[CapelDodger]

Seems to be an almost silly question but the communities divide themselves by which particular sect of Christianity they belong to. Would this violence exist, would it be started if Christianity wasn’t involved?

As so often, religious differences parallel economic and social differences, which are the real source of conflict. Prod settlers from Scotland took the good land from the Taigs, and kept them out of the industrial and trading sectors. Prods administered and enforced the law. Prods, in general, were better-off than Taigs. The bigotry was established over hundreds of years. Now that most Prods are as poor as Taigs, bigotry is all they have.

I despair of the place. Evict everybody and turn it into a National Wildlife Preserve. But don't specify which nation ... And don't evict them in my direction.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Darat
Is Christianity at the heart of this?

I searched the article for evidence of this, and I only found one mention of religion:

"It's frustration of Protestant people as to what they can do to have their ordinary voice heard. We just feel so frustrated that there is a cultural veto through the Parades Commission for the republican/nationalist community."

Originally posted by Darat
Seems to be an almost silly question but the communities divide themselves by which particular sect of Christianity they belong to. Would this violence exist, would it be started if Christianity wasn’t involved?

Do they really divide themselves by which sect of Christianity they follow, or does the religious division follow ethnic/political divisions?

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

I searched the article for evidence of this, and I only found one mention of religion:

"It's frustration of Protestant people as to what they can do to have their ordinary voice heard. We just feel so frustrated that there is a cultural veto through the Parades Commission for the republican/nationalist community."

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1422212.stm

"...The Orange Order is the largest Protestant organisation in Northern Ireland with at least 75,000 members, some of them in the Republic of Ireland.

Its origins date from the seventeenth century battle for supremacy between Protestantism and Catholicism....."

Do they really divide themselves by which sect of Christianity they follow, or does the religious division follow ethnic/political divisions?

Interesting question and it is at the heart of what I was asking, would this particular outbreak of violence have happened without the Christian influence, or another question from a different angle would some other excuse be found for this violence if Christianity was taken out of the equation?

(I'm not asking about the whole NI troubles just these particular troubles caused by the marching societies.)

This type of division is not limited to NI, Scotland has the same divisions in areas and many places in England have historically had similar division. As a for instance the town I was brought up in (in England) was a “Catholic” town up till really the middle of the last century and many of my elderly relatives were vehemently anti-catholic because of the discrimination against non-Catholics.

But it only seems to be only in NI that this is still causing this scale of violence, so perhaps it is not just a religious divide perhaps it requires something other then their Christianity to cause the violence?

(Edited for not.)

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

As so often, religious differences parallel economic and social differences, which are the real source of conflict. Prod settlers from Scotland took the good land from the Taigs, and kept them out of the industrial and trading sectors. Prods administered and enforced the law. Prods, in general, were better-off than Taigs. The bigotry was established over hundreds of years. Now that most Prods are as poor as Taigs, bigotry is all they have.

Sums up a few hundred years quite well.

I despair of the place. Evict everybody and turn it into a National Wildlife Preserve. But don't specify which nation ... And don't evict them in my direction.

I agree with the despair, but overall it does slowly inch itself forwards to a state of overall peace (if I ignore the organised crime) and this is the worse violence for many a year.

(Edited ig if.)

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Its origins date from the seventeenth century battle for supremacy between Protestantism and Catholicism....."

Sure, but the only reason they're not all Catholic is because back in the 16th century, Henry VIII wanted a divorce. It's not really a battle for supremacy between Protestantism and Catholicism but between English and Irish.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

I agree with the despair, but overall it does slowly inch itself forwards to a state of overall peace (ig I ignore the organised crime) and this is the worse violence for many a year.

It's a throwback to the early years of the Troubles. I'm old enough to remember them, hence the despair. It's pure sectarian bigotry, because the Protestant side is no better off then the Catholic side. They have nothing else in their lives but their hatred. Bulldozing parts of North and East Belfast to create parkland would probably suffice to get it over with.

Or perhaps the ultimate Paintball Arena? That would at least create jobs.

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Sure, but the only reason they're not all Catholic is because back in the 16th century, Henry VIII wanted a divorce. It's not really a battle for supremacy between Protestantism and Catholicism but between English and Irish.

Well the only reason not everyone is the same religion is along the way people kept inventing new ones!

Are you saying the religious differences play no part in this violence?

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Sure, but the only reason they're not all Catholic is because back in the 16th century, Henry VIII wanted a divorce. It's not really a battle for supremacy between Protestantism and Catholicism but between English and Irish.

Scots and Irish. The settlers were lowland Scots. The Scots came from Ireland and took the lowlands from the Picts, driving them into the less salubrious Highlands. King Fergus, yah? No? He was a world-famous in Scotland back in the day.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Are you saying the religious differences play no part in this violence?

I would say that the religious differences are called into service by an underlying, pre-existing conflict. It is used by the leaders of the factions to motivate their foot-soldiers.

Paisley, as an individual, is a religious nutcase of the first order. And Paisley is nothing without the conflict, which is why he will never accept peace. (Out-of-)working-class Protestants are much the same, they have nothing but non-Catholicism to give meaning to their lives.

 

[Ziggurat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Are you saying the religious differences play no part in this violence?

I never hear about doctrinal differences when I hear about the problems with northern Ireland. Hell, do they even KNOW what the doctrinal differences are, beyond the catholics having a pope and the protestants not? But I DO hear doctrinal differences used as justification is other religious conflicts - bin Laden spells them out all the time, for example. Granted, I don't browse IRA manifestos, but I would be quite surprised if they ever listed the protestant's refusal to recognize the authority of the Pope as a grievance. So my gut feeling is religion, per se, has very little to do with this, and the religious divide is really just a tool to accentuate deeper divisions, a convenient label and perhaps even for some a way to decide which side they'll take, but it's not religious in the sense that religious beliefs aren't what's causing them to fight.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Well the only reason not everyone is the same religion is along the way people kept inventing new ones!

Are you saying the religious differences play no part in this violence?

If there were religious leaders egging on their followers to kill in the name of God, promising eternal paradise to those who died in the cause, urging the people to "kill the pagans" or other such nonsense, or even if Catholic/Protestant violence were reflected in other parts of the world, I would say otherwise. Lacking any of that, I just don't see the evidence.

Edited to add: Noting the religious differences between these two sides is about the same as noting the religious differences between the Japanese and the Americans in WWII. The difference is there, it was a conflict that was Christians (mostly) versus Shinto/Buddhists, but you can't say the conflict was caused by these religious differences unless you have the participants saying so.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

I never hear about doctrinal differences when I hear about the problems with northern Ireland. Hell, do they even KNOW what the doctrinal differences are, beyond the catholics having a pope and the protestants not?

The Pope wears RED SOCKS! Excuse the caps, that's how Paisley speaks. He really said that, I saw it on TV. He was perhaps evoking a Catholic-Communist Conspiracy (Loyalists are anti-communist as well as anti-Catholic, and NI has a very healthy Nazi Party). Or he's just insane. He and his church have a web-site. Don't go there. You thought Pat Robertson was weird? No contest.

 

[Meadmaker]

Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

This type of division is not limited to NI, Scotland has the same divisions in areas and many places in England have historically had similar division. As a for instance the town I was brought up in (in England) was a “Catholic” town up till really the middle of the last century and many of my elderly relatives were vehemently anti-catholic because of the discrimination against non-Catholics.

I'm curious about something. I'm an Irish-American (mom is Irish born, naturalized American, and I have dual citizenship, Irish and American passports, despite having lived in America all my life.) Everything I know about Irish history comes from personal reading. It's not surprising that not many Americans know much about obscure topics, such as the rebellion of Hugh O'Neil and Hugh O'Donnell, and the aggressive plantation policy that followed its failure.

For anyone who doesn't want in Irish history lesson, skip the italics.


For those of you, which I assume is most of you, who don't know much about that, a very brief lesson on Irish History. The 16th century in Ireland was marked by a number of rebellions of the Irish against the English Crown. The last of those rebellions was the greatest. Primarily coming out of Ulster, it was led by Hugh O'Neil and Hugh O'Donnell, the Earls of Tyrone and Tir Connell. It was finally defeated at the battle of Kinsale in 1603, but not without some serious bloodshed and at least one rather severe battlefield defeat for the English, at the Battle of the Yellow Ford, in 1598. (I think it was '98).

After the defeat of the rebellion, the English decided to punish the Irish, especially the rebellious Ulster province, by stepping up their policy of plantation. What that meant is that they confiscated an awful lot of Irish held land, especially in Ulster, and gave it to loyal English people.

Well, not exactly, because by that time James I of England was on the throne, but he was James VI of Scotland. So the loyal "English" were mostly loyal Scots. Of course, the 16th century had seen an awful lot of bickering in England over whether the Catholics or the Protestants had the true religion, but in all that time, the Irish saw Protestantism as an English invention, and therefore hated it. They remained staunchly Catholic.

So, people loyal to the English crown were largely Protestant, and James gave away Irish land to his supporters, which meant that an awful lot of Protestant Scots suddenly ended up as landlords in Ulster, overseeing, and dominating, the native population. Needless to say, the native population didn't like being subject to a bunch of foreigners. And if that wasn't bad enough, they were Protestants, too.

That's how it all began. The Protestants were imported Scots, and the religious conflict is just a reflection of that 400 year old ethnic conflict. Even now, it's easy to spot ethnic, as opposed to religious, differences in the populations. One song I know about the Protestant/Catholic division features a Protestant named Bob Williamson and a Catholic named Bridget McGinn. If it were just a religious conflict, you wouldn;t be able to identify someone's religion by their name. (The song is "The Old Orange Flute:")

What I'm curious is whether or not you, Darat, knew anything about the role that the rebellion of Tyrone and TirConnell played in your own history? Would a typical English person know that bit of history? Do they teach that sort of thing in England?

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

...snip...

What I'm curious is whether or not you, Darat, knew anything about the role that the rebellion of Tyrone and TirConnell played in your own history? Would a typical English person know that bit of history? Do they teach that sort of thing in England?

Interesting question (if a bit off-topic) but I can't remember ever being taught anything about Anglo-Irish history during my education apart from one lesson that was in religious studies that was discussing the Reformation and its consequences.

I don’t know what is in the current national curriculum (I think its now about Coca-Cola – I kid you not) but I do think it would be appropriate to at least provide kids with some historic background for “the troubles”. (I suppose the argument is where or rather when do you stop? A bit of background for how we helped to contribute to the Israeli/Palestine problem, the Iraq problem, the Turkish/Kurd problem, Eastern European problem, the…. Unfortunately the UK seems to have been quite prominent in the root causes of many of the problems of today’s world – you’d think Empire wasn’t a good idea!)

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Interesting question (if a bit off-topic) but I can't remember ever being taught anything about Anglo-Irish history during my education apart from one lesson that was in religious studies that was discussing the Reformation and its consequences.

I don’t know what is in the current national curriculum (I think its now about Coca-Cola – I kid you not) but I do think it would be appropriate to at least provide kids with some historic background for “the troubles”. (I suppose the argument is where or rather when do you stop? A bit of background for how we helped to contribute to the Israeli/Palestine problem, the Iraq problem, the Turkish/Kurd problem, Eastern European problem, the…. Unfortunately the UK seems to have been quite prominent in the root causes of many of the problems of today’s world – you’d think Empire wasn’t a good idea!)

I think cromwell's activieities in irland get a mention

 

[Meadmaker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bombs, snipers... “religious nationalism” strikes again

Interesting question (if a bit off-topic)...

Thanks for answering. I didn't think it was horribly off-topic, though, because it really addresses your original question. The rebellion of the Hughs, and the English response to it, answers the question of why the Protestants of Ireland ended up concentrated in Ulser, and why religion isn't really a big issue in Northern Ireland, despite the fact that everyone talks about it as a Catholic/Protestant thing.

So, is Christianity at the heart of this? I would say no. I would say ethnic divisions that began in 1603 were at the heart of this.

One question I would wonder about is how many Irish know this? Are the origins of the conflict long forgotten except by folks like me that read about obscure history? I don't think so. My grandmother, whom I met only once, was aware that the Protestants of Ulster weren't "really" Irish.