bogus war on terrorism

[varwoche]

The war on terrorism is being conducted without using the most potent "weapon" at our disposal and as such is bogus.

Remember the laundry list of reasons why Iraq should be invaded? Supposedly this war was going to cause a political sea change in the middle east, and would facilitate a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. In fairness, it's too soon to declare failure. But can anyone say with a straight fact that peace between Israel and Palestine is closer, or that there is any cause for optimism?

There is no greater collective sore spot in the Islamic world than the plight of the Palestinians. For the US to take a balanced approach to this conflict would be not only be the moral thing to do, but also THE most important counter terrorism measure.

If the US took a balanced approach, would Islamist wing nuts lay down their arms? Of course not. Would it have a profound effect on the world from they draw their support? Probable.

Meanwhile, we continue to blindly favor Israel. Spineless democrats won't touch the topic because of electoral politics. And republicans won't touch it because of fundamentalist beliefs regarding the second coming / end of days. A pathetic state of affairs.

varwoche

 

[Tony]

Why should we support people (palestinians) who cheer when we are attacked at hold values contrary to ours? People piss and moan about how the US "created" Bin Laden and Saddam Hussien, why should we do the same with the palestinians?

 

[Zero]

Why should we support people (palestinians) who cheer when we are attacked at hold values contrary to ours?

Because it is the right thing to do?

 

[Tony]

Because it is the right thing to do?

Umm no. Equally supporting a fanatical religious society which worships suicide bombers and a modern free society is not the "right" thing to do by any stretch of the word.


Would it have been the right thing to do to equally support Nazi germany and Britain during WWII?

 

[Luke T.]

But can anyone say with a straight fact that peace between Israel and Palestine is closer, or that there is any cause for optimism?

Every day that Arafat gets closer to death, peace between Israel and Palestine is closer. That is cause for optimism.

 

[geni]

Re: Re: bogus war on terrorism

Every day that Arafat gets closer to death, peace between Israel and Palestine is closer. That is cause for optimism.

Really? Just think who will be next. It's not going to be the modrates. You might not like Arafat but he is a lot better than the alturnative (this is not hard).

 

[varwoche]

Originally posted by Tony:
Why should we support people (palestinians) who cheer when we are attacked at hold values contrary to ours?
----------------------

Indeed, there is much to dislike about both sides. No matter, US policy is broken -- both morally (imo) AND practically (per facts on ground). It's not easy to do this topic justice, especially time constrained, so in brief... The solution is dictated by practical realities on both sides; it transcends right and wrong:

- return to internationally recognized borders
- Arab countries formally recognize Israel right to exist
- east Jerusalem an international city
- no right of return to Israel
- US helps Israel build and defend the most robust wall imaginable (modular design, in hopes of...)
- massive world investment across the board (ROI easily justified)

At least do you agree that fundamentalist beliefs should not influence US foriegn policy?

varwoche

 

[Tony]

At least do you agree that fundamentalist beliefs should not influence US foriegn policy?

Absolutely.

 

[jj]

quote:
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Originally posted by varwoche


At least do you agree that fundamentalist beliefs should not influence US foriegn policy?


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Absolutely.

Then, about those Bush-administration directives involving birth control, etc, in funds disbursed as "aid"...

 

[Tony]

Then, about those Bush-administration directives involving birth control, etc, in funds disbursed as "aid"...

What about them....?

 

[Segnosaur]

Remember the laundry list of reasons why Iraq should be invaded? Supposedly this war was going to cause a political sea change in the middle east, and would facilitate a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. In fairness, it's too soon to declare failure. But can anyone say with a straight fact that peace between Israel and Palestine is closer, or that there is any cause for optimism?

First of all, you say that its too soon to declare failure, then you suggest there's no cause for optimism.

A long term change in the middle east is not something I would expect to happen for months, or even years. In fact, its quite possible that it may take over a decade to see major changes. And there are risks. However, the benefits (if successful) should greatly outweigh the possible problems. Simply put, the status quo was not a great place to be.

Lets see what's happened since the Iraq war...
- Saddam isn't funding Palestinian bombers
- Libya has started to cooperate more with the world community. (Don't totally trust Kadaffi Duck, but its a start)
- Syria has made a few statements about wanting peace with Israel

There is no greater collective sore spot in the Islamic world than the plight of the Palestinians.

I have to disagree here....

I believe that most support for the palistinian side of the conflict has nothing to do with the 'plight of the Palestinians'. Instead, the governemts of the area use the conflict as a way to distract their populations from the problems of their own societies. (I do think that Saudi Arabia is a bigger contributor to terrorism than Iraq was; however, that doesn't necessarily make the removal of Saddam a 'bad' move.)

For the US to take a balanced approach to this conflict would be not only be the moral thing to do, but also THE most important counter terrorism measure.

Well, lets see... Israel is a democracy, "Palestine" is a dictatorship. Do you think that the US should hold democracies and dictatorships in the same regard?

How many times has the US been criticized for supporting 'dictatorships'? The anti-war side loved pointing out that 'the US supported Saddam'. America has regularly been criticized for supporting Pinochet in Chile. However, given a chance to support a democracy (Israel) against non-democracies (Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.), the US support of a democracy actually gets criticized.

If the US took a balanced approach, would Islamist wing nuts lay down their arms? Of course not. Would it have a profound effect on the world from they draw their support? Probable.

What exactly do you base that on?

When the world criticizes Israel, they don't say "Israel is bad because the US supports them so much", they say "Look how Israel harms palestinians". However, as long as the "Islamic wing nuts" don't lay down their arms, Israel will have to defend themselves, and they will end up looking like the bad guys.

Meanwhile, we continue to blindly favor Israel. Spineless democrats won't touch the topic because of electoral politics. And republicans won't touch it because of fundamentalist beliefs regarding the second coming / end of days. A pathetic state of affairs.

You certaily are assigning some rather, ahem, powerful reasoning skills to the people who 'blindly favour Israel'. Have you ever considered that, instead of favouring Israel for some electoral or fundamentalist beliefs, they favour Israel because:
- It is currently the only 'real' democracy in the region, and democracy is worth supporting?
- They believe that the actions undertaken by the Israeli government are reasonable given Arabic actions?

 

[varwoche]

Segnosaur, I agree with much of what you say, with provisos.

Sure arab countries are despotic; I've no doubt that the mid-east conflict is used as a propoganda tool. This means that the battle for hearts and minds is more complex than it would be otherwise.

I'm not an apologist. Palestinians have been hugely disserved by Arafat at al. Which only makes worse the fact that the Palestinian people live under conditions that few who read this board are remotely capable of grasping. When people live in hellish conditions, enemy occupied, hellish blowback is tragically predictable.

What's the alternative? Apartheit? Endless conflict? Endless death and suffering? Endless war on terror?

All the while new settlements march on -- a huge thumb in the nose of the US.

varwoche

 

[EdipisReks]

maybe the arab world should just take the trans-jordanians back. the trans-jordianians have no more historical claim to isreal than the israelis, and the trans-jordanians certainly can't claim the moral highground.

 

[Zero]

Umm no. Equally supporting a fanatical religious society which worships suicide bombers and a modern free society is not the "right" thing to do by any stretch of the word.

Where's the modern "free" society? Anyhoo, you can support both, or maybe we should support none.

 

[Tony]

Where's the modern "free" society?

Read, it's the best cure for ignorance.

 

[Segnosaur]

I'm not an apologist. Palestinians have been hugely disserved by Arafat at al. Which only makes worse the fact that the Palestinian people live under conditions that few who read this board are remotely capable of grasping. When people live in hellish conditions, enemy occupied, hellish blowback is tragically predictable.

They may live in 'hellish' conditions, but how much of their situation is caused by the Palestinians themselves? Granted, not all palestinians support the bombings, but a large number (I think most opinion polls put them in the majority) do support the attacks. Why can't more of them figure out "Hey, if we keep sending people to blow themselves up, Israel will try to defend itself and our own people will suffer, so maybe we better not send more bombers".

Palestinians complaining about their 'hellish conditions' is a little like a convicted criminal complaining about the 'hellish conditions' of jail. Yes, things are miserable, but you got there through many of your own actions.

What's the alternative? Apartheit? Endless conflict? Endless death and suffering? Endless war on terror?

How about going after some of the dictatorships in the area, convert a few to democracy. That will cut down the amount of government sponsored terrorism against Israel. And, once a country is democratic, you won't have the citizens bombarded with the same level of anti-Israeli propaganda, and that should cut down the amount of individual support of the terrorism. Of course, all that takes time.

If they wanted to end terrorism sooner, Israel could simply kill or expell all Palestinians. But they aren't, are they?

All the while new settlements march on -- a huge thumb in the nose of the US.

While I don't necessarily agree with the settlements, and I don't think Israel is totally blameless, if I were to assign blame, I'd say that 95% of the blame goes to the Palistinians and Islamic states, and 5% goes to the Israelies. (Weigh the Israeli settlements against Palestinian support for suicide bombing, anti-Israel statements by palistinian officials, the purchase of illegal weapons by the palistinan authorities, the rock-throwing intifada, and which do you thin kis a more serious 'thumb to the eye'?)

If the Palestinians had accepted earlier peace offerings (which gave them the vast majority of what they wanted) instead of resorting to the intifada, they might actually have had their own country right now, and Israel wouldn't have been able to place settlers in areas that would have been a separate Palestinian country.