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BBC Programme to show acupuncture deactivates brain

andycal

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm

Any comments?

It seems this is just the filming of the experiment where the results were given here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm, but I'm sure that the guy who ran the experiments was discredited or something.

Part of a three parter on complimentary medicine that the beeb are now going to thrust down our throat. Obviously can't comment until I've watched it, but from the write up they seem to be quite positive.

One thing I have noticed, there seems to be a shift from "acupuncture stimulates the 'qi'" to "acupuncture releases endorphins". Scientific acceptance by stealth?
 
andycal said:
It seems this is just the filming of the experiment where the results were given here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4493011.stm, but I'm sure that the guy who ran the experiments was discredited or something.
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It would have been nice if the BBC had bothered to name the authors of the report, rather than just referring to them as "researchers". I think I've tracked them down though: I think the paper referred to is Pariente, White, Frackowiak and Lewith: 'Expectancy and belief modulate the neuronal substrates of pain treated by acupuncture', NeuroImage 2005 May 1;25(4):1161-7. University of Southampton press release here.
 
Mojo said:
It would have been nice if the BBC had bothered to name the authors of the report, rather than just referring to them as "researchers". I think I've tracked them down though: I think the paper referred to is Pariente, White, Frackowiak and Lewith: 'Expectancy and belief modulate the neuronal substrates of pain treated by acupuncture', NeuroImage 2005 May 1;25(4):1161-7. University of Southampton press release here.
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So it's not the acupuncture that deactivates your brain, it's the belief in acupuncture.

Sounds about right to me. Your brain's got to be shut down to think that making you look like a porcupine is going to cure anything.
 
Genesius said:
So it's not the acupuncture that deactivates your brain, it's the belief in acupuncture.

Sounds about right to me. Your brain's got to be shut down to think that making you look like a porcupine is going to cure anything.
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So they've got cause and effect the wrong way round: deactivated brains cause acupuncture.
 
Mojo said:
It would have been nice if the BBC had bothered to name the authors of the report, rather than just referring to them as "researchers". I think I've tracked them down though: I think the paper referred to is Pariente, White, Frackowiak and Lewith: 'Expectancy and belief modulate the neuronal substrates of pain treated by acupuncture', NeuroImage 2005 May 1;25(4):1161-7. University of Southampton press release here.
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I suspect this is the study they mean. The results were internally inconsistent, and reported to the lay media very selectively. They never measured pain at all. The correlation with the supposed `de-qi' sensation looked very shaky to me, to the extent that I could not see evidence for `de-qi' at all. Essentially, they specified what brain areas were of main interest, and then when there appeared to be an effect on another area changed their area of interest. Looks dangerously like fitting the hypothesis to the results.

The programme is already the subject of this thread. A colleague has reviewed the programme for a medical journal, and I have seen the draft review. Can't say much more because of the usual confidentiality constraints of course, but episodes 2 and 3 will make your blood boil. Look out for some outrageous claims for spiritual healing and herbalism. These are so bad that I have been asked to mobilise a barrage of complaints to the perpetrators' university. PM me for address details, but don't complain before you see the prog!
 
Asolepius said:
I suspect this is the study they mean. The results were internally inconsistent, and reported to the lay media very selectively. They never measured pain at all. The correlation with the supposed `de-qi' sensation looked very shaky to me, to the extent that I could not see evidence for `de-qi' at all. Essentially, they specified what brain areas were of main interest, and then when there appeared to be an effect on another area changed their area of interest. Looks dangerously like fitting the hypothesis to the results.

The programme is already the subject of this thread. A colleague has reviewed the programme for a medical journal, and I have seen the draft review. Can't say much more because of the usual confidentiality constraints of course, but episodes 2 and 3 will make your blood boil. Look out for some outrageous claims for spiritual healing and herbalism. These are so bad that I have been asked to mobilise a barrage of complaints to the perpetrators' university. PM me for address details, but don't complain before you see the prog!
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and what of Kathy Sykes role in all this. She doesn't just play a scientist on TV she's meant to be one.

Do you know what her original field is?
 
I think most of us here would argue that those who seek acupuncture already have deactivated brains.
 
Deetee said:
I think most of us here would argue that those who seek acupuncture already have deactivated brains.
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It's tempting to say that, and under the influence of alkyhol I'd say it out loud, but I reckon that most people believe it works.

When I'm out in the pub with a group of about 15 people, I find it's a 50/50 split on people believing most woo claims such as clairvoyancy etc, but when it comes to acupuncture, I'm in a minority of one who thinks it's rot.

Acupuncture really has made it into the mainstream. A friend of mine was referred by his doctor, I mean, what chance have they got?
 
Ouch! I had acupuncture for my back pain, but it didn' t work. My acupuncturist was an 8th generation practicioner who had escaped from the Communists in the late 1940's, so I think she knew what she was doing (whatever that means). Anyway, the technique was to stick a needle into the cyatic nerve of my leg, which would feel like an electric shock. She said it was 'shocking' the pain out of my leg, but from what I've learned, overstimulating a nerve causes it to become somewhat number. I'm sure the shock caused my brain to release endorphins, so there's your 'scientific' rationale for acupuncture.

Anyway, my back eventually felt better, but only because I started going to physical therapy. I had some cortisone shots a few months ago, which have also helped, and it turns out my cortisone doctor had acupuncture every so often for his own back pain! He seemed surprised that acupuncture didn't work for me, but he still felt that acupuncture made him feel a little better. I think when it comes to chronic pain, people are willing to believe and try anything to make the pain stop.
 
Is this the programme going out tonight hosted by Kathy Sykes?

I must say I do wonder how on earth mere placebo effect can enable a little girl to withstand open heart surgery without anaesthetic.

Various poster here have claimed that placebo can only make you feel a bit better. This goes way beyond that. Can anyone explain how such things are possible?
 
Splossy said:
Is this the programme going out tonight hosted by Kathy Sykes?

I must say I do wonder how on earth mere placebo effect can enable a little girl to withstand open heart surgery without anaesthetic.

Various poster here have claimed that placebo can only make you feel a bit better. This goes way beyond that. Can anyone explain how such things are possible?
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Well it appears that their is anaesthetic involved - and sedatives. See this link to the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm

This is also being discussed in this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50697

Suddenly seems a bit less impressive doesn't it - but we'll have to reserve full judgement until after watching the programme tonight...
 
Splossy said:
I must say I do wonder how on earth mere placebo effect can enable a little girl to withstand open heart surgery without anaesthetic.

Various poster here have claimed that placebo can only make you feel a bit better. This goes way beyond that. Can anyone explain how such things are possible?
Click to expand...

First off, the program states:
The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.
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So, she had local anaesthetic then.

Which according to this site: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4462

Is nothing new. In fact it's preferable to use local because there are less complications. Seeing as she is also sedated, it makes you wonder why they used acupuncture at all. Oh, because the cameras were there.
 
:) Great minds think alike!

Prediction time. I'm going to make one now. I'm guessing that someone actually states "local anaesthetic" but then a question is asked later on like "so, how can it work without anaesthetic?" - missing off the qualifier.

I have to admit, I'm not sure I'll be able to face watching it, 'cos I'll have to go through the whole thing down the pub later and explain every bit to the thickos who didn't watch it properly.
 
Splossy said:
Ah right. So anaesthetic is being used!

Mystery solved.
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I'm repeating what has already been said, but I was just reading a letter in New Scientist making the same point. The claim was that, like the brain, most internal organs don't have pain receptors, so the combination of a local anaesthetic and sedation would be expected to be sufficient regardless of other interventions.

I'll find the relevant copy and post the full reference tonight, if anyone's interested...
 
Splossy said:
Is this the programme going out tonight hosted by Kathy Sykes?

I must say I do wonder how on earth mere placebo effect can enable a little girl to withstand open heart surgery without anaesthetic.

Various poster here have claimed that placebo can only make you feel a bit better. This goes way beyond that. Can anyone explain how such things are possible?
Click to expand...

1. She isnt having open heart surgery!
2. She has been given pain killers or a local anesthetic but is still concious.
 
andycal said:
First off, the program states:


So, she had local anaesthetic then.

Which according to this site: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4462

Is nothing new. In fact it's preferable to use local because there are less complications. Seeing as she is also sedated, it makes you wonder why they used acupuncture at all. Oh, because the cameras were there.
Click to expand...
But this doesn't explain how they were able to open the chest, and have the patient breathing spontaneously. The American Heart site only talks about `patients with heart disease', not open chest surgery per se. I'm no expert, but I don't see how they can open the chest without ventilating the patient, which needs paralysis and GA.
 
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