Cont: Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun (2)

[theprestige]

But does a fair process require letting a killer walk? I mean, penalize the prosecutor, with jail time if need be. Society isn't benefiting from criminals walking on their charges. It's keeping them running loose. You know, in society.

Yes, it absolutely means letting the killer walk. Being brought to trial imposes a cost on the citizen. The state doesn't get a do-over because it abused its authority and flouted the rule of law. Society benefits more from protecting the accused from double jeopardy, than it benefits from letting the state keep trying to convict them until they get it right. Even if they really are a killer.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yes, it absolutely means letting the killer walk. Being brought to trial imposes a cost on the citizen. The state doesn't get a do-over because it abused its authority and flouted the rule of law. Society benefits more from protecting the accused from double jeopardy, than it benefits from letting the state keep trying to convict them until they get it right. Even if they really are a killer.

Seth Kenny admitted on the Stand he was sorting Ammo for use in 45LC Lever action Rifles.

Can anyone guess what type of Ammo the live rounds were that were found on the Rust set?

 

[theprestige]

Seth Kenny admitted on the Stand he was sorting Ammo for use in 45LC Lever action Rifles.

Can anyone guess what type of Ammo the live rounds were that were found on the Rust set?

I have no opinion about that.

 

[acbytesla]

Seth Kenny admitted on the Stand he was sorting Ammo for use in 45LC Lever action Rifles.

Can anyone guess what type of Ammo the live rounds were that were found on the Rust set?

I mean here's the crux of it all. Seth Kenney said many times it doesn't matter where the live rounds came from. It was HGR's responsibility to make sure they weren't used. But it does matter. That doesn't totally absolve HGR but it does make Kenney as much or more responsible.

 

[smartcooky]

But does a fair process require letting a killer walk? I mean, penalize the prosecutor, with jail time if need be. Society isn't benefiting from criminals walking on their charges. It's keeping them running loose. You know, in society.

You should rephrase that to "But does a fair process require letting a suspect walk?" - the reason being that without a verdict of guilty, we don't know for sure if the suspect is a "killer" in the eyes of the law.

Apart from Erlinda Ocampo Johnson, not one of the prosecutors or LEOs came forward and said "Hey, we need to turn this over to the defence". The reasons why they did what they did are plainly obvious - they wanted to win at trial, and they were prepared to cheat and lie and break the law to do it.

There has to be a penalty beyond a personal one for malfeasance by an entire office. Every prosecutor in the Santa Fe District Attorney’s Office and every senior LEO in the Santa Fe Sheriff's Office HAD to have known about that evidence, and they HAD to have known it was being withheld from the defence. Special Prosecutor Johnson certainly did, and the reason she resigned is because she knew it was being suppressed, and she knew what Morrissey et al were doing was both wrong and illegal. She wanted to voluntarily dismiss the case, but Morrissey overruled her.

 

[smartcooky]

You feel good incarcerating individuals who had no intent? This was an accident. A cavalcade of mistakes of a multitude of people.

Indeed. This case is a great example of Professor James Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident causation, which is often used in air accident investigation

Slice 1: A person or persons unknown is reloading Starline casings with live rounds.

Slice 2: A person or persons unknown (but probably Seth Kenny) mixes some of those live rounds with dummy rounds in a box of ammunition.

Slice 3: A person or persons unknown brings a box with a mixture of live and dummy rounds to the film set.

Slice 4: Hannah Gutierrez unknowingly loads at least one live round into the prop gun.

Slice 5: Alec Baldwin points the gun at Halnya Hutchins and either pulls the trigger, or the gun goes off.


Replace any of the slices with Slice 6, and the path to the accident is stopped. The shooting doesn't happen.
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[Crazy Chainsaw]

Indeed. This case is a great example of Professor James Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident causation, which is often used in air accident investigation

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/h67bjjo2si7z4ctdps25h/SwissCheeseModel.jpg?rlkey=wvl1rjoyr8qhw8hja08veg0vx&raw=1[/qimg]

Slice 1: A person or persons unknown is reloading Starline casings with live rounds.

Slice 2: A person or persons unknown (but probably Seth Kenny) mixes some of those live rounds with dummy rounds in a box of ammunition.

Slice 3: A person or persons unknown brings a box with a mixture of live and dummy rounds to the film set.

Slice 4: Hannah Gutierrez unknowingly loads at least one live round into the prop gun.

Slice 5: Alec Baldwin points the gun at Halnya Hutchins and either pulls the trigger, or the gun goes off.


Replace any of the slices with Slice 6, and the path to the accident is stopped. The shooting doesn't happen.
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‎

Safety is always a Layered process.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I mean here's the crux of it all. Seth Kenney said many times it doesn't matter where the live rounds came from. It was HGR's responsibility to make sure they weren't used. But it does matter. That doesn't totally absolve HGR but it does make Kenney as much or more responsible.

Listen to him admitted putting actors lives at risk in a flawed lie.
He stated he sorted the Rifle Ammo and risked a chain fire in a tubular Magazines he is clearly Lying no Armour will load round pointed Ammo, I a tubular Magazine it all has to be flat point.

https://youtu.be/NZq1i3Aebpw?si=v2dVfKcnmEQbJxRY

 

[smartcooky]

Safety is always a Layered process.

You missed the point. Take a look at what I was replying to.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You missed the point. Take a look at what I was replying to.

No I got the point but there are 7 slices, you forgot David Halls screw up, handing the gun to Baldwin without having Hannah Recheck it.

 

[Thermal]

Indeed. This case is a great example of Professor James Reason's "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident causation, which is often used in air accident investigation

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/h67bjjo2si7z4ctdps25h/SwissCheeseModel.jpg?rlkey=wvl1rjoyr8qhw8hja08veg0vx&raw=1[/qimg]

Slice 1: A person or persons unknown is reloading Starline casings with live rounds.

Slice 2: A person or persons unknown (but probably Seth Kenny) mixes some of those live rounds with dummy rounds in a box of ammunition.

Slice 3: A person or persons unknown brings a box with a mixture of live and dummy rounds to the film set.

Slice 4: Hannah Gutierrez unknowingly loads at least one live round into the prop gun.

Slice 5: Alec Baldwin points the gun at Halnya Hutchins and either pulls the trigger, or the gun goes off.


Replace any of the slices with Slice 6, and the path to the accident is stopped. The shooting doesn't happen.
‎
‎

Slice 1 is an everyday occurrence. Slices 2 through 4 reflect criminal negligence, not whoopsie daisy accidents, which is what the charges are about. Slice 5 is another sidebar demonstration of reckless, ignoring of basic safety protocols. Slice 6 is... not being negligent or reckless..

It's trivially true that if the actors had decided to not be criminally negligent/reckless, the shooting wouldn't have happened. The fact that each one chose to be negligent in a deadly matter is rather the point of the criminal investigation. It's hugely significant that so many people displayed this negligence, too. One person in a freak set of "slices" is one thing, but virtually everyone involved screwing the pooch is a climate of recklessness that resulted in a needless body bag.

Eta: "Slice 6" is simply behaving safely and legally. That would be a silver bullet to literally any crime, so I don't know how that is supposed to be illustrative. The fact that virtually all of the actors were reckless is in fact the problem.

 

[Thermal]

No I got the point but there are 7 slices, you forgot David Halls screw up, handing the gun to Baldwin without having Hannah Recheck it.

I'd count more than 7. But this isn't a matter of small holes in Swiss Cheese unfortunately lining up. Each freaking slice is one massive gaping hole of recklessness.

 

[Thermal]

You feel good incarcerating individuals who had no intent? This was an accident. A cavalcade of mistakes of a multitude of people.

Do I feel good about it? No. Do I think criminal negligence and recklessness should be punished? Yes.

Their intent was to not give a **** about other people's safety, in an entirely foreseeable way. Nothing I've seen of this incident seems to be an "accident", in the sense of "it was excusable as just one of those random things".

 

[acbytesla]

Do I feel good about it? No. Do I think criminal negligence and recklessness should be punished? Yes.

Their intent was to not give a **** about other people's safety, in an entirely foreseeable way. Nothing I've seen of this incident seems to be an "accident", in the sense of "it was excusable as just one of those random things".

Simply not in evidence.

What is in evidence that Baldwin and the director was rushing her. And that a live round labeled the same as the Dummy rounds was used. Definitely negligence. But I do not believe that it was reckless. But doesn’t rise to the level of criminality which requires incarnation.

 

[acbytesla]

How badly did the prosecutor Morrissey damage her career?

Now maybe I don't understand this very well. But my impression is Ms. Morrissey is not someone that is a full time employee of the State of Mexico. But a special prosecutor under contract specifically for this case.

Because this had a high profile and that the case was streamed it offered an opportunity to advance the careers of the attorneys. But also because of those factors, it also carried with it the chance of causing damage to them.

My question is this. Did Kari Morrissey irreparably damage her career as a prosecutor or as any kind of attorney? Seriously, with this on her resume, who will hire her now?

 

[smartcooky]

Slice 1 is an everyday occurrence.

Starline Brass do not manufacture live rounds. I'll bet no-one here (not even Crazy Chainsaw) and including you, knew that people in the prop movie business were reloading Starline casings as live rounds before this fact was brought up in this thread, and certainly not before the Rust shooting happened. In fact, it was not widely known at all.

Hindsight is always 20-20

Slices 2 through 4 reflect criminal negligence, not whoopsie daisy accidents, which is what the charges are about. Slice 5 is another sidebar demonstration of reckless, ignoring of basic safety protocols. Slice 6 is... not being negligent or reckless..

It's trivially true that if the actors had decided to not be criminally negligent/reckless, the shooting wouldn't have happened. The fact that each one chose to be negligent in a deadly matter is rather the point of the criminal investigation. It's hugely significant that so many people displayed this negligence, too. One person in a freak set of "slices" is one thing, but virtually everyone involved screwing the pooch is a climate of recklessness that resulted in a needless body bag.

Eta: "Slice 6" is simply behaving safely and legally. That would be a silver bullet to literally any crime, so I don't know how that is supposed to be illustrative. The fact that virtually all of the actors were reckless is in fact the problem.

You also have missed the point, because you also either did not read what I was replying to or didn't understand the statement. You're trying to shoot the messenger without even understanding the message.

The Swiss Cheese model is NOT some kind of blame game - it doesn't speak to who did what, or why, or were they negligent or incompetent, or didn't follow some procedure ... its simply speaks to what is. Its a tool used plot a path to disaster, and shows that multiple events are involved, and that if any one of which doesn't happen, the path if blocked that path.

Another poster earlier pointed out that in the case of Baldwin himself, there was a live round in the chamber that he did not know about. If he didn't have the gun in his hand when the shot was fired, it could have been the next person to pick up the gun who could have killed someone, or the next, or the next, or the next.

IMO (and I confess that my opinion is coloured by my experiences in the aviation industry) it is the person or persons who initially put into place the dangerous conditions, who should be ultimately responsible for what happened at the end of the chain. For example, in the crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 312, it was the inability of the pilots to regain control of the aircraft that resulted in the crashes, killing over 300 people. Even though subsequent tests showed the aircraft were recoverable if the pilots had known exactly what to do, its was ultimately Boeing who were to blame for putting in place all the dangerous conditions in the first place.

 

[acbytesla]

Starline Brass do not manufacture live rounds. I'll bet no-one here (not even Crazy Chainsaw) and including you, knew that people in the prop movie business were reloading Starline casings as live rounds before this fact was brought up in this thread, and certainly not before the Rust shooting happened. In fact, it was not widely known at all.

I will say this however. The source, either through HGR or Seth Kenney, was HGR's stepfather. So it seems to me that HGR may not be able to claim ignorance.

Hindsight is always 20-20
You also have missed the point, because you also either did not read what I was replying to or didn't understand the statement. You're trying to shoot the messenger without even understanding the message.

The Swiss Cheese model is NOT some kind of blame game - it doesn't speak to who did what, or why, or were they negligent or incompetent, or didn't follow some procedure ... its simply speaks to what is. Its a tool used plot a path to disaster, and shows that multiple events are involved, and that if any one of which doesn't happen, the path if blocked that path.

Another poster earlier pointed out that in the case of Baldwin himself, there was a live round in the chamber that he did not know about. If he didn't have the gun in his hand when the shot was fired, it could have been the next person to pick up the gun who could have killed someone, or the next, or the next, or the next.

IMO (and I confess that my opinion is coloured by my experiences in the aviation industry) it is the person or persons who initially put into place the dangerous conditions, who should be ultimately responsible for what happened at the end of the chain. For example, in the crashes of Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 312, it was the inability of the pilots to regain control of the aircraft that resulted in the crashes, killing over 300 people. Even though subsequent tests showed the aircraft were recoverable if the pilots had known exactly what to do, its was ultimately Boeing who were to blame for putting in place all the dangerous conditions in the first place.

So true.

I have little doubt that HGR shares much of the blame in the tragic death of Cinematographer Hutchins. She deserves to be fired and probably will never work in the movies ever again. But her mistake was one of many made by multiple people. It might make some feel better. But I disagree with making her a felon and sending her to prison.

 

[whoanellie]

Starline Brass do not manufacture live rounds.

Though true, I do believe this is a red herring. Correct me if I'm wrong but Starline Brass manufactures neither live rounds nor dummy rounds. I would assume that the vast majority of Starline Brass cases are used for live ammunition.

 

[acbytesla]

Though true, I do believe this is a red herring. Correct me if I'm wrong but Starline Brass manufactures neither live rounds nor dummy rounds. I would assume that the vast majority of Starline Brass cases are used for live ammunition.

Are they?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

It might make some feel better. But I disagree with making her a felon and sending her to prison.

I agree. What would be the point? Prison should be reserved for those who are a danger to society.

Very disappointing to hear that Baldwin got off though. I mean, he's an arrogant, entitled, self righteous Hollywood pig with a net worth of $70 million, and a democrat! That alone should have been enough to convict.