Balancing Skepticism and Faith

[attempt5001]

This is a difficult and very personal topic for me, so I figured an anonymous forum of strangers would be the perfect place to discuss it (actually serious about that).

I grew up in a Christian home and have interacted with a variety of Christian people, groups, organizations in a variety of roles throughout my life. With very few (minor) exceptions, it's been a tremendously positive experience; great family, sincere friendships, supportive and caring communities, people's lives changed for the better time and time again thanks to generous, compassionate and selfless expressions of faith. I think I've experienced some of the best that faith/religion has to offer.

I also am middle-age, have a family, a Ph.D. and am a critical thinker with open eyes/mind to the world around me. As such, there is inevitable (and increasing over the last number of years) tension/conflict between my faith and my skepticism. The former is both foundational and precious to me, but the latter is also essential to my ability to live life and explore and interact with the world-at-large in a genuine way.

I thought I would voice that in hopes there are others here who have a similar experience and would like to discuss it. Thanks.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I sort of feel like there's no answer we can give you or that you really want.

There's nothing wrong with holding two directly contradictory ways of looking at the world. But we can't talk you into saying that's not what you are doing. If you can't solve the contradiction for yourself or just leave with it we can't do it for you.

 

[Crossbow]

I sort of feel like there's no answer we can give you or that you really want.

There's nothing wrong with holding two directly contradictory ways of looking at the world. But we can't talk you into saying that's not what you are doing. If you can't solve the contradiction for yourself or just leave with it we can't do it for you.

Seconded and well said 'JoeMorgue'!

Also, welcome to the Forum 'attempt5001'.

And sorry to be so negative, but if you wish to believe your various fairy stories about supernatural beings and events, then you are quite at liberty to do so.

After all, it is quite unlikely that you will ever find a valid process which contains both subjective religious beliefs and objective scientific understanding. Because many people have been searching for such a process for many hundreds of years now, and so far nothing positive has ever developed from all of this effort.

Furthermore, as our science keeps getting better and better, then the divide between religious beliefs and good science just keeps getting wider and wider.

 

[Diablo]

Probably the best way is to ignore the problem.

 

[Thermal]

Don't worry about it too much. We really don't need a Grand Unified Theory for Everything. Take the best of each, and don't focus unnecessarily on the shortcomings of either.

 

[fagin]

I grew up in an atheist home (well, no religion anyway, it just wasn't a thing.) I have interacted with many people, groups, and organisations throughout my life.

Most have been positive, helpful and supportive.

Some have been total dicks.

Very few, on either side have been religious.

I learnt long ago that there are good people and not good people. Associate with the good ones and you do ok.

You have been lucky, I doubt divine intervention had anything to do with it.

As Crossbow mentioned, fairy stories (except as entertainment) and scepticism are basically incompatible.

 

[Dr. Keith]

There are lots of scientists who are religious. My experience is that they are far more studious about the details of their science than they are about the dogmas of their religion. I think that is where the best balance resides.

Take the positive community experience that your faith offers, along with the comforts you can give and get in that community, for what they are: a positive community. Much in the same way other people view their bowling league, country club, boy scout troop, or high school alumni organization. These are supportive communities that offer you and your family the opportunity to help others and feel a part of something bigger than yourselves.

But when seeking out truth, you have found better tools.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I grew up in a Christian home and have interacted with a variety of Christian people, groups, organizations in a variety of roles throughout my life. With very few (minor) exceptions, it's been a tremendously positive experience; great family, sincere friendships, supportive and caring communities, people's lives changed for the better time and time again thanks to generous, compassionate and selfless expressions of faith. I think I've experienced some of the best that faith/religion has to offer.

I grew up in an atheist home, have interacted with atheists throughout my life, and have also experienced all of the above positives. A lot of Christians are really very nice people; but a lot of people are really very nice people. The place to exercise your scepticism, I think, is in the direction of asking how much of the positives you experience are actually attributable to the religious beliefs of the people providing them, and how much simply to the fact that they are good people who have chosen that framework as a convenient one to work within.

Dave

 

[The Big Dog]

There is not and need not be a conflict between religious faith and skepticism, any more than the lack of religious belief equates with skepticism. It has been my experience that some of the most fervent atheists you will find are some of the least skeptical/tolerant people you will meet.

Case in point, less than an hour after you posted this thread, some folks were deriding your beliefs as "fairy tales." Certainly that was not a reasonable, or skeptical position, but there you have it, it is appallingly common unfortunately.

 

[Mycroft]

I think Stephen Colbert addresses this very well in this interview with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Look around the 6:00 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FktrNFjZfKg

My own contribution is to point out that our own tiny dust-speck of the Universe is huge and complex beyond the understanding of any one person and that it's not necessary or even feasible to come to a complete understanding of everything during our brief lifespans. Therefore you shouldn't worry too much if you haven't arrived at your own final answer on the religion question because very few other people have either.

I'd also add that it's entirely possible to come to the conclusion that there probably isn't a God, but to still see the value of religion in that it builds community and draws people together.

 

[Thor 2]

This is a difficult and very personal topic for me, so I figured an anonymous forum of strangers would be the perfect place to discuss it (actually serious about that).

I grew up in a Christian home and have interacted with a variety of Christian people, groups, organizations in a variety of roles throughout my life. With very few (minor) exceptions, it's been a tremendously positive experience; great family, sincere friendships, supportive and caring communities, people's lives changed for the better time and time again thanks to generous, compassionate and selfless expressions of faith. I think I've experienced some of the best that faith/religion has to offer.

I also am middle-age, have a family, a Ph.D. and am a critical thinker with open eyes/mind to the world around me. As such, there is inevitable (and increasing over the last number of years) tension/conflict between my faith and my skepticism. The former is both foundational and precious to me, but the latter is also essential to my ability to live life and explore and interact with the world-at-large in a genuine way.

I thought I would voice that in hopes there are others here who have a similar experience and would like to discuss it. Thanks.

If you are honest with yourself I don't think you will be able to stay on that tightrope. The evidence that your faith, and the faith of others around you, is somehow related to the positive experiences you have had, is not there. The relationship between faith and good people is negative, when we look at the evidence available. Incarceration rates in religious communities compared to the not so religious is a good example of this evidence.

Maintaining a belief in something because you think it is good for you, is not sustainable in my opinion also.

 

[attempt5001]

I sort of feel like there's no answer we can give you or that you really want.

There's nothing wrong with holding two directly contradictory ways of looking at the world. But we can't talk you into saying that's not what you are doing. If you can't solve the contradiction for yourself or just leave with it we can't do it for you.

Right. I understand what you mean and appreciate your perspective. I didn't actually ask a question, and I'm not looking for answers from the community here. Nor do I claim there is no contradiction, rather, it is the tension inherent to contradiction that I am interested in discussing with anyone (absolutely including yourself) who is interested.

 

[attempt5001]

Seconded and well said 'JoeMorgue'!

Also, welcome to the Forum 'attempt5001'.

And sorry to be so negative, but if you wish to believe your various fairy stories about supernatural beings and events, then you are quite at liberty to do so.

After all, it is quite unlikely that you will ever find a valid process which contains both subjective religious beliefs and objective scientific understanding. Because many people have been searching for such a process for many hundreds of years now, and so far nothing positive has ever developed from all of this effort.

Furthermore, as our science keeps getting better and better, then the divide between religious beliefs and good science just keeps getting wider and wider.

Thanks for the welcome Crossbow. Appreciated. And I agree, objective scientific understanding and subjective religious beliefs are different concepts entirely. I appreciate your point as well that many religious beliefs that were used to describe/understand the world around us have been (and continue to be) displaced by good science, Faith ascribed to the "God of the gaps" theology is a shrinking domain.

I guess for me though, there is still a value in exploring a faith/science balance that is somewhat akin to exploring the threshold between matter and energy. Kind of like how physical light straddles latter and Jesus ("the light of the world") straddles the former. I realize that sort of talk is a little "out there" for a skeptics forum, and I'm inviting criticism, but I'm happy to receive some critical, (and ideally thoughtful and respectful) responses.

 

[attempt5001]

Don't worry about it too much. We really don't need a Grand Unified Theory for Everything. Take the best of each, and don't focus unnecessarily on the shortcomings of either.

Thanks for the reply Thermal. The "don't worry about it too much" has been a critical part of the process for me

I agree with the latter sentiment too and am trying to find a balance in doing that. Cheers!

 

[The Greater Fool]

Welcome to the forum.

This seems part of understanding subjective vs objective truth.

Other than the existence of god, religion is an attempt to understanding good vs bad, good and bad generally being subjective values. Science obviously dealing with the objective values.

Looking at it in such a way, I think all of us, faithful and faithless, experience such a tension.

Is this the direction you are aiming for?

 

[attempt5001]

I grew up in an atheist home (well, no religion anyway, it just wasn't a thing.) I have interacted with many people, groups, and organisations throughout my life.

Most have been positive, helpful and supportive.

Some have been total dicks.

Very few, on either side have been religious.

I learnt long ago that there are good people and not good people. Associate with the good ones and you do ok.

You have been lucky, I doubt divine intervention had anything to do with it.

As Crossbow mentioned, fairy stories (except as entertainment) and scepticism are basically incompatible.

Thanks for sharing your perspective fagin. You're right that attributing my positive life experience with divine intervention creates the conundrum of apparent divine favouritism, which is a challenging idea (for me at least).

I'm not sure you (and others) who use terms like "fairy stories" to describe religious texts are being genuinely skeptical or scientific though. At the very least, they demonstrate and describe an exploration of certain universal anthropological questions and challenges and are valuable to contextualize a lot of human history. Calling them "Fairy stories" strikes me as a way to express derision towards (and to get a rise out of) people who hold them valuable. I don't think exploring their value as more than "children's fiction" is incongruent with skepticism, though I appreciate your underlying point that skepticism must assert they are not historically or scientifically literal or factual.

 

[attempt5001]

There are lots of scientists who are religious. My experience is that they are far more studious about the details of their science than they are about the dogmas of their religion. I think that is where the best balance resides.

Take the positive community experience that your faith offers, along with the comforts you can give and get in that community, for what they are: a positive community. Much in the same way other people view their bowling league, country club, boy scout troop, or high school alumni organization. These are supportive communities that offer you and your family the opportunity to help others and feel a part of something bigger than yourselves.

But when seeking out truth, you have found better tools.

Thanks DrK. That has been my experience with most scientists who are religious as well. And I agree that many communities capture and reflect the characteristics I described in the OP as well.

 

[attempt5001]

I grew up in an atheist home, have interacted with atheists throughout my life, and have also experienced all of the above positives. A lot of Christians are really very nice people; but a lot of people are really very nice people. The place to exercise your scepticism, I think, is in the direction of asking how much of the positives you experience are actually attributable to the religious beliefs of the people providing them, and how much simply to the fact that they are good people who have chosen that framework as a convenient one to work within.

Dave

Thanks Dave. That's a fair and well articulated point. For me, the fact that "good people" (e.g., showing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control) can be found ubiquitously encourages me towards faith (though simultaneously away from many doctrines I must admit).

 

[attempt5001]

There is not and need not be a conflict between religious faith and skepticism, any more than the lack of religious belief equates with skepticism. It has been my experience that some of the most fervent atheists you will find are some of the least skeptical/tolerant people you will meet.

Case in point, less than an hour after you posted this thread, some folks were deriding your beliefs as "fairy tales." Certainly that was not a reasonable, or skeptical position, but there you have it, it is appallingly common unfortunately.

Hi TBD. For me there is definitely some tension and have been some conflicts in thinking and reasoning along the way. I do prefer trying to work through those conflicts though without simply tossing one away in favour of the other though. I know what you mean about some people ascribing passionately to atheism at least in part based on the "say-so" of people they have chosen to believe. Though I think many people adhere to faith in a similar manner, again at least in part. Both sides are populated by some prone to throwing stones at the other as well I think.

I'm not too upset by people who express skepticism/atheism in ways that are designed to irritate/offend. Some do it out of habit and others on purpose, but there is often opportunity for discussion there either way.

 

[attempt5001]

I think Stephen Colbert addresses this very well in this interview with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Look around the 6:00 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FktrNFjZfKg

My own contribution is to point out that our own tiny dust-speck of the Universe is huge and complex beyond the understanding of any one person and that it's not necessary or even feasible to come to a complete understanding of everything during our brief lifespans. Therefore you shouldn't worry too much if you haven't arrived at your own final answer on the religion question because very few other people have either.

I'd also add that it's entirely possible to come to the conclusion that there probably isn't a God, but to still see the value of religion in that it builds community and draws people together.

Thanks for the thoughts Mycroft. I'll check out the video when I get a second. I agree with your own contribution as well. Part of my goal in discussing this is to explore it without an expectation of absolute resolution. (I expect that idea will frustrate many, as it would for me in any scientific exploration). I feel like there is value in the exploration.