babies' ability to learn any language

[thines]

More on birds, language and non-human primates.

Regarding cuckoos, I don't think any research has been done on them specifically. The best book on this general topic is Bolhuis & Everaert's "Birdsong, Speech and Language. Exploring the Evolution of Mind and Brain (2013, MIT Press). A bit old, to be sure, but still the most recent synthesis out there. Another important point about bird song and human language - not all birds sing. It's mostly the passeriformes or perching birds and there generally only the males sing. Song is used to attract mates and defend territories. Very interestingly, most species studied show lateralization effects with the left side of the bird's brain being in control of song production. This is somewhat similar to lateralization of language function in human brains.
As to language in non-human primates, I don't think there is any real evidence that any non-human species uses language, even when they are taught sign language. A great deal of that research demonstrated the Clever Hans effect more than anything else, along with wishful thinking. Which are sort of the same thing I guess. Boles in his "Cognitive Evolution" (2019, Routledge) concludes that non-human primates do have a sort of small "vocabulary" of signs and can use these. But this is far from a real language, in the sense that human language (whether spoken or signed) is both productive and referential. Nor do non-human primates have the neruoanatomical connections that support human language, although chimps have sort of the precursors as shown by Rilling et al. (Nature, Neuroscience 2008, 11, 426-428.
OK, I'll shut up now as this may be more than anyone wanted to know.

 

[wasapi]

When my son was in the Peace Corp, he was sent to Ecuador. He met a lovely Ecuadorian school teacher, who he eventually married. When they moved back to the state, she barely spoke any English, but studied it, and of course, Brandon, being bilingual, helped.

Fast forward a few years up the road, they had 3 precious daughters. My son and his wife spoke both English and Spanish in their household. It was interesting to watch them as they started to become verbal. Their first words were sometimes in English and sometimes Spanish.

Now, at ages 6, 11, and 13, they go from one language to another in a heart beat. Also, they have an amazing vocabulary for their ages. And, I am a proud abuelita.

 

[sackett]

Thines: Thank you for your contributions, although they're way ●less● than we all crave to know.

My late father in law* speculated that early Homo may have had a fairly well developed gesture language before they had fully developed speech.

* Charles F. Hockett of Cornell. His speculations, always presented modestly, were worth more than any number of lesser men's loud certainties.

 

[Modified]

My Chinese nephew stayed with us for 5 1/2 months when we was four years old. He learned English quickly, and spoke it very naturally by the end, though with a limited vocabulary. He didn't come back until he was seven. Despite studying English continuously in school and visiting us for an average of four weeks every year from age seven to twelve, he never quite regained that fluency. He has a much larger English vocabulary now and a good technical understanding of English grammar, but just doesn't speak it quite as effortlessly as when he was four.

 

[novaphile]

I can't remember the author, because I read it a long time ago...

...but the theory was, that the fashion of babbling 'baby talk' at children, significantly impairs their ability to learn any language.

From my experience over the years, in the workforce, I find that adults - who still refer to horses as gee-gees, and ducks as da-das, etc. - seem to also be hampered in other forms of speaking, reading and writing.

The book explained that the baby-talk concept varied by culture and class.

In my own experience, it also goes much lower than that. Otherwise, why would someone like me, from an utterly working class background have been spared?

(Note - in my case, it was because my father particularly hated baby talk.)

 

[SusanB-M1]

Regarding cuckoos, I don't think any research has been done on them specifically. The best book on this general topic is Bolhuis & Everaert's "Birdsong, Speech and Language. Exploring the Evolution of Mind and Brain (2013, MIT Press). A bit old, to be sure, but still the most recent synthesis out there. Another important point about bird song and human language - not all birds sing. It's mostly the passeriformes or perching birds and there generally only the males sing. Song is used to attract mates and defend territories. Very interestingly, most species studied show lateralization effects with the left side of the bird's brain being in control of song production. This is somewhat similar to lateralization of language function in human brains.
As to language in non-human primates, I don't think there is any real evidence that any non-human species uses language, even when they are taught sign language. A great deal of that research demonstrated the Clever Hans effect more than anything else, along with wishful thinking. Which are sort of the same thing I guess. Boles in his "Cognitive Evolution" (2019, Routledge) concludes that non-human primates do have a sort of small "vocabulary" of signs and can use these. But this is far from a real language, in the sense that human language (whether spoken or signed) is both productive and referential. Nor do non-human primates have the neruoanatomical connections that support human language, although chimps have sort of the precursors as shown by Rilling et al. (Nature, Neuroscience 2008, 11, 426-428.
OK, I'll shut up now as this may be more than anyone wanted to know.

There is certainly no need to shut up as far as I'm concerned!! The more actual information, the better - especially when it concerns reality.
I will see if the book you mention Is available in braille.

When my son was in the Peace Corp, he was sent to Ecuador. He met a lovely Ecuadorian school teacher, who he eventually married. When they moved back to the state, she barely spoke any English, but studied it, and of course, Brandon, being bilingual, helped.

Fast forward a few years up the road, they had 3 precious daughters. My son and his wife spoke both English and Spanish in their household. It was interesting to watch them as they started to become verbal. Their first words were sometimes in English and sometimes Spanish.

Now, at ages 6, 11, and 13, they go from one language to another in a heart beat. Also, they have an amazing vocabulary for their ages. And, I am a proud abuelita.

How lovely! I googlef ebuelita - grandmother.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I can't remember the author, because I read it a long time ago...

...but the theory was, that the fashion of babbling 'baby talk' at children, significantly impairs their ability to learn any language.

From my experience over the years, in the workforce, I find that adults - who still refer to horses as gee-gees, and ducks as da-das, etc. - seem to also be hampered in other forms of speaking, reading and writing.

The book explained that the baby-talk concept varied by culture and class.

In my own experience, it also goes much lower than that. Otherwise, why would someone like me, from an utterly working class background have been spared?

(Note - in my case, it was because my father particularly hated baby talk.)

A very sensible father!

 

[abaddon]

In the book I am reading at the moment, 'Bird Sense'* by Prof Tim Birkhead, (published2012) I am on the seconde part about Hearing. At one point he talks about a discovery in bird hearing which, when shown to be so, immediately showed that babies do not, as was previously thought, have the inborn ability to learn different languages at the start of their lives.


I find this difficult to believe, as it is well known that children brought up to speak two languages are able to do so and become efficiently bi-lingual, providing both parents continue to use both languages of course.

As it is a braille book, it is quite difficult to find the exact words the author uses, although I will try to do so later,, but I wondered if anyone here knows the current best knowledge on the subject.

* Although it's not exactly a page-turner, I have already learnt quite a bit about birds' vision from the first section. it is very interesting.

It's not as simple as that. I know what you are getting at, but ironically, I am unsure if I have the language to express it.

In short, all human babies are born prematurely. Watch, for example a deer giving birth. Within minutes the fawn is tottering around on stilt like legs.

Humans do not work that way. Unless you think gestating a human baby for long enough that it could walk within a few minutes of birth.

I don't know how you feel about a four year gestation, but it would seem rather onerous to me to the women among us, and the process of childbirth is bad enough already.

 

[SusanB-M1]

It's not as simple as that. I know what you are getting at, but ironically, I am unsure if I have the language to express it.

In short, all human babies are born prematurely. Watch, for example a deer giving birth. Within minutes the fawn is tottering around on stilt like legs.

Humans do not work that way. Unless you think gestating a human baby for long enough that it could walk within a few minutes of birth.

I don't know how you feel about a four year gestation, but it would seem rather onerous to me to the women among us, and the process of childbirth is bad enough already.

No thank you, the nine months plus a two-week extension was quite enough … just over 60 years ago!!

 

[Jungle Jim]

Thank you - that is very interesting. As some people are naturally more able to pick up accents and inflexions better than others, I wonder whether the fact that your step-daughter has a flawless French accent and that your son's accent is American when speaking French is anything to do with that.

I think you may be right, in part. As it turned out my step daughter has well tuned verbal acuity as well as being naturally outgoing. My son on the other hand is shy and introspective. Also, I believe that the 3 1/2 years my step-daughter knew only French helpful in retaining the way that one speaks French. Her brother, although he was bilingual from birth spent his whole life in American culture. When he went to France each summer the children there knew he was American because his accent was a little off and he was unfamiliar with the certain aspects of French culture. My step daughter commented that what trips her up (and gives her away as a foreigner) when in France is slang. Someone will use French slang and she'll ask, "what does that mean" and people will look at her like she daft.

 

[JeanTate]

Regarding cuckoos, I don't think any research has been done on them specifically. The best book on this general topic is Bolhuis & Everaert's "Birdsong, Speech and Language. Exploring the Evolution of Mind and Brain (2013, MIT Press). A bit old, to be sure, but still the most recent synthesis out there. Another important point about bird song and human language - not all birds sing. It's mostly the passeriformes or perching birds and there generally only the males sing. Song is used to attract mates and defend territories. Very interestingly, most species studied show lateralization effects with the left side of the bird's brain being in control of song production. This is somewhat similar to lateralization of language function in human brains.
As to language in non-human primates, I don't think there is any real evidence that any non-human species uses language, even when they are taught sign language. A great deal of that research demonstrated the Clever Hans effect more than anything else, along with wishful thinking. Which are sort of the same thing I guess. Boles in his "Cognitive Evolution" (2019, Routledge) concludes that non-human primates do have a sort of small "vocabulary" of signs and can use these. But this is far from a real language, in the sense that human language (whether spoken or signed) is both productive and referential. Nor do non-human primates have the neruoanatomical connections that support human language, although chimps have sort of the precursors as shown by Rilling et al. (Nature, Neuroscience 2008, 11, 426-428.
OK, I'll shut up now as this may be more than anyone wanted to know.

This is super cool, thanks very much!

I have an OT question ... what template do mimic songbirds have?

My extreme example is Australia’s superb lyrebird, which I was lucky enough to first hear and then see in the wild. It ran through several bird calls, including kookaburra (which to my ear seemed just slightly “wrong”), and I’ve read they can mimic civilization sounds well too (including, apparently, car alarms! also in the wild). I guess the quality of their song, in some way, attracts females (and their display concludes their case) ... surely both male and female brains must have unusual wiring for them to make and understand sounds that cannot be genetically programmed?

 

[casebro]

This is super cool, thanks very much!

I have an OT question ... what template do mimic songbirds have?

My extreme example is Australia’s superb lyrebird, which I was lucky enough to first hear and then see in the wild. It ran through several bird calls, including kookaburra (which to my ear seemed just slightly “wrong”), and I’ve read they can mimic civilization sounds well too (including, apparently, car alarms! also in the wild). I guess the quality of their song, in some way, attracts females (and their display concludes their case) ... surely both male and female brains must have unusual wiring for them to make and understand sounds that cannot be genetically programmed?

A couple/3 decades ago, wood carving in the back yard. Using an industrial disc sander, we would take swipes at the wood. Schoop, schoop, schoop. When the mockingbirds came into season, they woke me one night, I had to wonder what was familiar about their tune. They were singing Mweep, mweep, mweep. Same "song", but 3-4 octaves higher.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Having just now finished the third part of 'Bird Sense' on the sense of touch, I have a question. The section ends with quite anextensive description of the courting and copulation behaviour of Buffalo Weaver birds! The question arises though: if the male bird does not use the phalloid organ to inseminate the female, then what part of his anatomy does he use? I'm going to google the question, but it will probably mean I'll have to listen through all the rest of the tale all over again, so an answer will be much appreciated.
It would seem that Prof Tim Birkhead and his PhD student were the ones who solved the questions about the phalloid. I think it is information I could happily have lived the rest of my life without, but having read it, the info will have to be complete!
Very interesting before that to read the section about the sense of touch of Oil birds and the Ivorybilled woodpecker.

Edited to add: I have googled and found that it is the Red-billed Buffalo Weaver - I'd forgotten the whole title - and that there was a reference to 'cloaca'. I had come across this word in the book of course and had meant to find out its meaning as I'd never heard the word before. It seems to have some kind of accent over the first a, but even a quick google doesn't provide an adequate explanation, I'm afraid!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That “blank slate” idea has long since been debunked; Stephen Pinker wrote a book of that title pretty much dismissing the idea. ...

This is absurd. If we don't have a "blank slate" for learning language as young kids, how on Earth do kids learn how to speak their native languages?

What I've read from Pinker hasn't impressed me.

... As to language acquisition, it was of course famously maintained by Noam Chomsky that humans had a specific “organ” or structure in the brain specifically for the acquisition of language.Others have dismissed that idea, of course. ...

I know Chomsky more for his politics than his linguistics.

I don't understand what Pinker's issue is. Of course kids have an open window for language to about the age of 5-7. After that time we can learn a second language but it is harder.

There is indeed a "specific “organ” or structure in the brain specifically for the acquisition of language". Neurological research has identified that. If it is damaged, however, the young brain is often plastic enough it can compensate.

From the OP: "babies do not, as was previously thought, have the inborn ability to learn different languages at the start of their lives".

We're not birds. Everything in animal brains does not have an equivalent feature in human brains.


Wasn't there a thread on this not that long ago?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

This is absurd. If we don't have a "blank slate" for learning language as young kids, how on Earth do kids learn how to speak their native languages?

What I've read from Pinker hasn't impressed me.

The Blank Slate

Anthropologist Thomas Hylland Eriksen argued that most of Pinker's arguments were flawed since they employed a strawman fallacy argumentation style, and selectively picked supporting evidence as well as foils. He wrote: "perhaps the most damaging weakness in books of the generic Blank Slate kind is their intellectual dishonesty (evident in the misrepresentation of the views of others), combined with a faith in simple solutions to complex problems. The paucity of nuance in the book is astonishing." Similarly, biologist Patrick Bateson criticized Pinker for focusing on refuting the belief that all human characteristics are determined by a person's environment. He argued that this belief was "a caricature...used to sustain yet another round of the tedious and increasingly irrelevant nature-nurture debate."