AUDIO TWEAKS AND THE DOUBLE BLIND TEST CULT

trainman

Student
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Feb 22, 2005
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Dear friends in the skeptic community

Presenting the “intelligent chip”, James Randi, asked: “Just how abysmally stupid can audio crazies get?” One of them responded – a blind test was about to be agreed to, but the whole discussions led to a “fiasco”.

Now that all this raving seems to be diminished, let me please share with you some of my thoughts, concerning, not only this device, but the whole attitude of JREF and your community, towards audio tweaks – expecting from you, only to forgive my very poor English, as it is not my native language and I don’t use it frequently.

I am one of those “audio lunatics, nuts and crazies” that Mr. Randi derides – I have already successfully used two “intelligent chips”, but also, even more radical devices, like the ones that Peter and May Belt feature, receiving such alike comments by JREF.

It would be fun to candidate for your million bucks but it seems almost impossible: You see, it happens to live in the other hemisphere of the planet – in Greece – and travelling to USA, staying, preparing and passing the whole tests is a tough plan, even in the quest of a million. I am sure also, that “Golden Sound” is not still ready to support me financially for the task, let alone that I will have to pass even harder tests in the American embassy in order to get a visa!

So – let me address to you, to talk you about…

THE CULT OF THE BLIND TEST

Every cult shares a portion of truth, and the most successful ones are those with the biggest portions. And friends, without underestimating the value of the ABX test, I am about to renounce it as the one and sublime way to verify the claims of an audio contriver.

1) First of all, I’d like to ask: What is the main purpose of a blind test? To investigate a “paranormal” phenomenon, test the “pseudo-scientific explanations” of the inventor of a device, or test the ability of the listener? If Wellfed, or me - Trainman - could pass the JREF examination, what would we prove? Would we prove that GSIC really enhances the audio quality of a compact disc, or that we have “paranormal” abilities? And why couldn’t someone claim, that nothing of the sort is proven, “but the protocol was just not framed properly?”

The best answer that one could give would be that I proved my ability to earn 1 million dollars. THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

2) The second question I like to add is why Mr Randi’s, Kramer’s and Hans’s sceptic nature does not bother to test the abilities of the music reviewers and commentators. Let me be, a bit more specific:

I have in front of me, two cd’s from the Naxos label, two historical recordings. The one is a recording of the third part of Beethoven’s “Moonlight Sonata” with the legendary Ignaz Friedman on the piano, recorded on September 1926. The other recording is the same piece, from the same pianist, recorded two years later – at 1928 - same pianist, same piece, same frenzy performance, with just a very few seconds difference in the total time of the two recordings.

Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not. Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize?

If you could really succeed in this task, would that be a “paranormal” phenomenon or not Mr Kramer? And could then the various “mediums”, “psychics” and the rest, rejoice that the sceptics are beaten at last?

Now: Every respectable newspaper and magazine has its own music and arts section. From the New York Times to the Gramophone, there are very respectable people that comment on music performances, and disc productions. Some of them could even tell you and compare by thought only, the difference between Rubinstein’s and Horowitz’s Chopin, the differences in the performances of the same artist during the years, the various product values and qualities of the recordings. For sure, they could be very quick to tell you which reading of Beethoven’s sonatas they prefer.

These people do not sell cheap tweaks and chips to a handful of nuts like me. They write at the most respectable publications. They can destroy a career of an artist and make one of another. These people have power in their hands.

I can imagine many of them, along with some hundreds of piano teachers, to claim that they are able to discriminate the various recordings and tell you that Ignaz Friedman in the second recording blurs that phrase or the other. Would you ever ask them to repeat their judgment under a blind test?

Why haven’t you challenged the music reviewers, dear friends? Is it only because their ability to listen through a recording or a concert is theoretically and scientifically possible (in contrary with the absurd claims of Peter Belt or Machina Dynamica), or you are afraid to do so?

3) Let’s return to the blind test again. As I said before, you cannot underestimate its value when you are a researcher, a scientist in the field of psychoacoustics and even more, if you happen to be a magician, a person qualified to deceive the sight of the audience in a show. Things cannot be so positive though, in the world of audio – at least since we recognize some difference, between the terms of “sound” and “music”.

Let me give you some examples:

Every expert will tell you that the hearing ability of the human being starts to decrease after the 18th year. Very few people human ears have the ability to discern sounds close to 20 kHz after their adolescence. Most of us adults, hear up to 16000-17000 Hz.

How come then, the whole planet to trust an aged violinist to fulfil their needs of musical pleasure? Why not to prefer a young and cheerful artist that would have his listening abilities intact? Is it because the audience is not able to hear the difference too? And what about the makers of the instruments? When did Guarnieri or Sax produce their best instruments – at their teens, or fifties?

Most of us, audiophiles, when younger, were pretty satisfied when listening to our music through cheap stereo junk walkmans, like our younger brothers and sons that listen now through their ipods and mp3s. Would you claim that they know better, and their 50$ machines sound better than the serious high fidelity stuff of their fathers? What is for sure though, is that they are happier than us!...

When I see published ABX tests such like the ones (www.pcavtech.com) that Mr Randi praised in one of his commentaries, I aim to find data that is usually missing or is difficult to describe: Age, experience in listening, familiarity with the hi-fi system and the recordings, interest in the music playing.

And last – are you, sceptics, sure, that five different people listening to a music reproducing system in blind always apprehend its sound in the same way?

TOWARDS MY OWN “PROTOCOL”

What is the biggest enemy of the double blind experiment? The sales of the products, of course!

You can easily say that a person is somehow deceived, but you have to answer, how could be a more massive sample of satisfied customers deceived, and believe that their 16$ or 200 pounds “swindles”, improve the sound of their cd’s (or the perception of it). The usual answer of yours is that these people are temporally or constantly in a state of self illusion, or that they are ready to believe everything they are told to.

Well, I cannot argue that there is always such a category – “a sucker is born every minute” etc. In reality though, things are more complicated.

- There are those who believe everything and are ready to pay (how many of them you’ve really met?)
- There are the converts – those that did not believe but “saw the light” - myself included.
- There are the ones that just do not care.
- There are the ones that did not believe, agreed that the “tweaks” work, but didn’t care afterwards – didn’t care to explain the phenomenon (some of my fellow-students for instance).
- There are people that admit before listening, “not able to judge” but “if you say so, I believe you, because you are experienced and you know better”.
- There are people that listen hard, but they cannot discern any difference.
- There are people that they feel very comfortable to refuse the possibility of sound altering, since James Randi has done it first and nobody challenged him through accepting to participate to a double blind test.
- There are those that refuse to accept the eventuality of the extreme “tweaking”, since the principle that lies beyond it is unscientific.
- There are the ones that believe that the whole thing is “********”.

There will always be people that are extremely satisfied listening music through a cheap Chinese portable and the ones that would not rest even with the most expensive frontline system. There will always be the audio-ignorant and the audio-neurotic. Which kind of listener should I choose to demonstrate the efficiency of a product?

For me, a blind test was not needed to acknowledge the impact of some devices unto my perception of music. I have studied music from my early childhood and, although I didn’t become a performer, I grew up to be a dedicated listener. Was I born a person ready to be deceived by swindlers at my forties, that the cd’s perform better under their shadow cases? Well – who knows?

I didn’t manage to come to the States for the million that could save my life (and help me buy many more lp’s and cd’s and a much better system for sure) but I managed to create an imaginary “protocol” just for you!

I choose someone among you, which have the same love of music and can appreciate mine. A person that has at least experienced in the past, the feeling of longing to find a record that is not available at his local shop, or even in his country – that has gathered with difficulty money and has waited patiently for months for a record to come from abroad.

If possible, I would choose for start a person that appreciates classical music and can discern a good pianist from a mediocre one. I would then invite him in my little salon for a cup of tea or coffee.

I wouldn’t choose a good recording, as Golden Sound and Machina Dynamica suggest for the experiment. I would choose an old one, one of those ADD’s, maybe one of those ageing recordings that border on paranormal – for what but “paranormal” is for a music lover, to be able to listen to the gramophone recordings of the old Masters!

It is with these recordings of the early 20’s and 30’s that the audio engineers struggle. They have to battle against millions of clicks and pops and crackles, they have to manage the lack of bass, the lack of air, they got to balance the opposites - they have to restore a wreck from the bottom of the sea.

I would choose Naxos’s transfers of the ageing records of Ignaz Friedman, or the legendary Arthur Schnabel’s Beethoven Sonata Society Recordings, transferred for cd from Pearl. I would let the friend to listen with me those recordings, marginally listenable through my old and bright Pioneer-Mission system. Then, I would place the Intelligent Chip over the platter. And when the white noise would rise minatory from the background, when the harmonics of the higher octaves would be more insistent without being balanced from the already missing bass, when the piercing of the needle of the gramophone to the record would be more apparent, then I would ask my visitor: “Would you still wish to continue?”

It is for sure an unorthodox approach and a weird protocol without any prize. But you are always welcome.

Trainman
 
trainman said:
***snip***It would be fun to candidate for your million bucks but it seems almost impossible: You see, it happens to live in the other hemisphere of the planet – in Greece – and travelling to USA, staying, preparing and passing the whole tests is a tough plan, even in the quest of a million. I am sure also, that “Golden Sound” is not still ready to support me financially for the task, let alone that I will have to pass even harder tests in the American embassy in order to get a visa! ***snip***

Lucky for you, you needn't travel to the U.S. to be tested. I'm sure the JREF would have no problem finding a qualified representative to conduct the tests in Europe, or quite possibly on your very own home island.

Now... I'll leave you to dream up another lameass excuse.

Carry on.
 

Geia sou. Xarika gia tin gnorimia


Nice to meet you. I'm new here myself.

Before you start using language like 'cult' to describe double-blind testing and then admit that you don't even know what it means, I'd suggest researching it. It's just common sense. I'm certain you value common sense, the same way you value having your views respected. By the way you have written this post, it seems that you have a few issues with skeptics? So, perhaps some things should be clarified in order to ensure that you understand their views and maybe come to less of an emotive approach to whatever Mr Randi has said.

First -


trainman said:
It would be fun to candidate for your million bucks but it seems almost impossible: You see, it happens to live in the other hemisphere of the planet – in Greece – and travelling to USA, staying, preparing and passing the whole tests is a tough plan, even in the quest of a million. I am sure also, that “Golden Sound” is not still ready to support me financially for the task, let alone that I will have to pass even harder tests in the American embassy in order to get a visa!

I'd suggest looking at the criteria for JREF, for a start.

If you go to the Challenge section of this forum, you can see a few examples where Kramer has demonstrated that there is no need to go to the USA. In fact, he was rather taken aback, it appears, when someone turned up at the JREF offices doorstep!

You contact JREF by making an application in the correct manner, with protocol et al (there's a nice FAQ about that too),

Then.


THEY organise a skeptic representative near you - have you tried checking out who is in your nearest city, for example? - possibly some scientific professionals with accreditation and experience in examining scientific claims.... and you'll be put to the minimal put-out of travelling! :) In fact, have a read of some of the claims that were put to the test, where they even made several bookings and tried to accomodate the applicants as best as they could, even at one point booking a hall, I believe and changing the date to best suit the applicant.

And, as I've seen on these boards, know that you'll be lauded as a good example of a keen applicant who seeks to further knowledge (and sure, there may be some who say otherwise but eh, you took on the challenge and kudos for that, nonetheless. ) :)



trainman said:

So – let me address to you, to talk you about…

THE CULT OF THE BLIND TEST


No - let me address YOU - I'd suggest not using that term, 'cult' again. Find out what it means, first. Then start seeing that you are in fact, wrong. Sorry - very wrong. :)

Here's some links:
http://skepdic.com/control.html
http://www.plasticsurgerydr.com/rpseudo.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/scivsalt.html

Enjoy. :)


trainman said:
Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not. Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize? ......


Sounds interesting....

Write it up - apply. :) You seem to have done some groundwork already. I'd support you trying as you certainly seem passionate.

But first - I'd find out what double-blind testing meant before you criticise it. Otherwise, it might all be a waste. And I'm certain from your behavior that you don't want this to be wasted and ignored.

Show me. Kali tihi! :)



Edited for bad cut and paste, excuse me.
 

(snip)
1) First of all, I’d like to ask: What is the main purpose of a blind test? To investigate a “paranormal” phenomenon, test the “pseudo-scientific explanations” of the inventor of a device, or test the ability of the listener? If Wellfed, or me - Trainman - could pass the JREF examination, what would we prove? Would we prove that GSIC really enhances the audio quality of a compact disc, or that we have “paranormal” abilities? And why couldn’t someone claim, that nothing of the sort is proven, “but the protocol was just not framed properly?”
The best answer that one could give would be that I proved my ability to earn 1 million dollars. THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY OBJECTIVE TRUTH.
The primary purpose of double blinding a test is to make sure you're not fooling yourself. The only people who could object to this are people who don't want to know if they're fooling themselves.
If someone were to pass the JREF challenge, then what would have been proved, or ruled out, would be dependent on the exact details of the test. And certainly someone could claim the protocol was not framed properly. I mean, if someone can claim that quantum dots can affect a property of a Compact Disc that doesn't even exist, (I refer to the waveform reconstruction timing, which is not stored on the disc), then certainly someone could claim that any particular test is not framed properly.
But, regardless of any such claim, the person who passed the JREF challenge would be one million dollars richer.

Originally posted by trainman
2) The second question I like to add is why Mr Randi’s, Kramer’s and Hans’s sceptic nature does not bother to test the abilities of the music reviewers and commentators. Let me be, a bit more specific:

I have in front of me, two cd’s from the Naxos label, two historical recordings. The one is a recording of the third part of Beethoven’s “Moonlight Sonata” with the legendary Ignaz Friedman on the piano, recorded on September 1926. The other recording is the same piece, from the same pianist, recorded two years later – at 1928 - same pianist, same piece, same frenzy performance, with just a very few seconds difference in the total time of the two recordings.

Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not. Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize?

If you could really succeed in this task, would that be a “paranormal” phenomenon or not Mr Kramer? And could then the various “mediums”, “psychics” and the rest, rejoice that the sceptics are beaten at last?

Now: Every respectable newspaper and magazine has its own music and arts section. From the New York Times to the Gramophone, there are very respectable people that comment on music performances, and disc productions. Some of them could even tell you and compare by thought only, the difference between Rubinstein’s and Horowitz’s Chopin, the differences in the performances of the same artist during the years, the various product values and qualities of the recordings. For sure, they could be very quick to tell you which reading of Beethoven’s sonatas they prefer.

These people do not sell cheap tweaks and chips to a handful of nuts like me. They write at the most respectable publications. They can destroy a career of an artist and make one of another. These people have power in their hands.

I can imagine many of them, along with some hundreds of piano teachers, to claim that they are able to discriminate the various recordings and tell you that Ignaz Friedman in the second recording blurs that phrase or the other. Would you ever ask them to repeat their judgment under a blind test?

Why haven’t you challenged the music reviewers, dear friends? Is it only because their ability to listen through a recording or a concert is theoretically and scientifically possible (in contrary with the absurd claims of Peter Belt or Machina Dynamica), or you are afraid to do so?

No, hearing a difference where there is a real difference -- even a subtle one -- is not a paranormal claim. Would I undertake to differentiate the two recordings, given the time to become familiar with them, for a million dollars? In a heartbeat. Got the money, in bonds, designated for such a purpose?

Originally posted by trainman
3) Let’s return to the blind test again. As I said before, you cannot underestimate its value when you are a researcher, a scientist in the field of psychoacoustics and even more, if you happen to be a magician, a person qualified to deceive the sight of the audience in a show. Things cannot be so positive though, in the world of audio – at least since we recognize some difference, between the terms of “sound” and “music”.
(snip)
And last – are you, sceptics, sure, that five different people listening to a music reproducing system in blind always apprehend its sound in the same way?
Actually, I doubt that five different people interpret the same music in the same way. But that isn't the subject under discussion.

Originally posted by trainman
TOWARDS MY OWN “PROTOCOL”

What is the biggest enemy of the double blind experiment? The sales of the products, of course!

You can easily say that a person is somehow deceived, but you have to answer, how could be a more massive sample of satisfied customers deceived, and believe that their 16$ or 200 pounds “swindles”, improve the sound of their cd’s (or the perception of it). The usual answer of yours is that these people are temporally or constantly in a state of self illusion, or that they are ready to believe everything they are told to.

Well, I cannot argue that there is always such a category – “a sucker is born every minute” etc. In reality though, things are more complicated.
(snip)

For me, a blind test was not needed to acknowledge the impact of some devices unto my perception of music. I have studied music from my early childhood and, although I didn’t become a performer, I grew up to be a dedicated listener. Was I born a person ready to be deceived by swindlers at my forties, that the cd’s perform better under their shadow cases? Well – who knows?

Would a double-blinded test make the effect go away?
Above, you acknowledge a difference here between sound and music.
I contend that the sound of the CD is not affected by the GSIC. I fully believe your perception of the music is affected by your knowledge that the CD was treated, but I don't consider that to be a physical effect on the sound.

Originally posted by trainman
I didn’t manage to come to the States for the million that could save my life (and help me buy many more lp’s and cd’s and a much better system for sure) but I managed to create an imaginary “protocol” just for you!
(snip)
I would choose Naxos’s transfers of the ageing records of Ignaz Friedman, or the legendary Arthur Schnabel’s Beethoven Sonata Society Recordings, transferred for cd from Pearl. I would let the friend to listen with me those recordings, marginally listenable through my old and bright Pioneer-Mission system. Then, I would place the Intelligent Chip over the platter. And when the white noise would rise minatory from the background, when the harmonics of the higher octaves would be more insistent without being balanced from the already missing bass, when the piercing of the needle of the gramophone to the record would be more apparent, then I would ask my visitor: “Would you still wish to continue?”

It is for sure an unorthodox approach and a weird protocol without any prize. But you are always welcome.

Trainman
As other posters have pointed out, you needn't travel to the United States. Wellfed happened to be in the U.S., and was originally willing to travel to Florida. This was not considered necessary by JREF.

Your protocol is NOT particularly unorthodox. It's just not very good. Consider this small change: We listen to the music once, then I flip a coin, and call the result to someone else, who puts something (neither of us knows what) on the CD. Then we listen to the music again. Is it improved?
 
Originally posted by trainman
I have in front of me, two cd’s from the Naxos label, two historical recordings. The one is a recording of the third part of Beethoven’s “Moonlight Sonata” with the legendary Ignaz Friedman on the piano, recorded on September 1926. The other recording is the same piece, from the same pianist, recorded two years later – at 1928 - same pianist, same piece, same frenzy performance, with just a very few seconds difference in the total time of the two recordings.

Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not. Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize?
I have an accurate stopwatch. If the two recordings differ in length by a few seconds, I could easily distinguish between them simply by timing them. I would not have to listen to the music at all carefully.
Every respectable newspaper and magazine has its own music and arts section. From the New York Times to the Gramophone, there are very respectable people that comment on music performances, and disc productions. [ ... ] I can imagine many of them, along with some hundreds of piano teachers, to claim that they are able to discriminate the various recordings and tell you that Ignaz Friedman in the second recording blurs that phrase or the other. Would you ever ask them to repeat their judgment under a blind test?

Why haven’t you challenged the music reviewers, dear friends? Is it only because their ability to listen through a recording or a concert is theoretically and scientifically possible (in contrary with the absurd claims of Peter Belt or Machina Dynamica), or you are afraid to do so?
If some music reviewer says he can discriminate various recordings, but in fact he can't do so unless he already knows which recording is which, then he's fooling himself too. Whether anyone decides to challenge him or not, or what their reasons are for that decision, seems to be rather beside the point.
I would choose Naxos’s transfers of the ageing records of Ignaz Friedman, or the legendary Arthur Schnabel’s Beethoven Sonata Society Recordings, transferred for cd from Pearl. I would let the friend to listen with me those recordings, marginally listenable through my old and bright Pioneer-Mission system. Then, I would place the Intelligent Chip over the platter. And when the white noise would rise minatory from the background, when the harmonics of the higher octaves would be more insistent without being balanced from the already missing bass, when the piercing of the needle of the gramophone to the record would be more apparent, then I would ask my visitor: “Would you still wish to continue?”
Of what do you hope to convince us with this test?

We already agree that people (including ourselves) might think they hear a difference between a plain CD and a CD that has been treated with the Intelligent Chip. We just don't agree that there really is a difference.

If there really is a difference and if someone truly can hear it, can you think of any reason why that person would not be able to distinguish reliably between a treated CD and untreated CD unless he already knew which one was which?
 
trainman said:
It is for sure an unorthodox approach and a weird protocol without any prize. But you are always welcome.
Darn! I was hoping for a self-financed vacation to Greece...

And Trainman, in case you didn't know: Anyone can hear the difference with your "protocol". And even if they don't, they can still claim they did.

That is true even if you use the SD-RAM card from your digital camera instead of an actual authentic "intelligent chip"... (That's an in-joke among skeptics who have seen both and the plastic case they come in.) :)

Let me just give you some advice: Read, learn and save A LOT of money that you can instead invest in music. If you're still not convinced, win a million dollars. It's a win-win situation for you!
 
I will break my silence to point out that the FACTS of human perception are known well enough that it is UNDERSTOOD that only a Double Blind test or competent cognate of such a thing has any meaning at all in any scientific, repeatable audio comparison that goes much beyond the question of 'is there any audio at all or not'. The same sort of tests are even sometimes required to answer that question at threshold levels.

This is not speculation, it is not under any serious debate in any way, shape, or form whatsover, and it is completely and as close to universally accepted as any idea ever was in the real, scientific, professional areas where such work is routinely done. There is no challenge presently mounted that would suggest that there is any serious claim or problem with proper double-blind testing, and there has been no such challenge with any serious import in many years, either.

While the mechanisms of inadvertant self-deception are not understand, and are part of the CNS, the fact that inadvertant self-deception is universal among listeners (expert or not) tested in a scientifically meaningful way explains entirely why some "tweaks" work. No further discussion should be necessary, especially for phantsmagorical codswallop that can not withstand even a simple DBT protocol.

Statements like "Double-Blind Test Cult" are false, unduely dismissive, insulting, and constitute an unthinking and wholeheartedly ignorant attack on the the people who actually know the subject. Such statements are shameful and counterproductive to actual understanding, and only cause the informed individual to further reject the patent nonsense put forth by some audiophiles and audio reviewers.

Certainly there may be people who promote various kinds of Double-Blind Tests who do not run the best, most sensitive, or fairest tests. Using such examples to argue against double-blind testing employs the same logic as the person, who on spotting the wheel-less, motorless old car up on blocks in the junkyard, concludes "cars don't work".

The title of this thread is scurrilous, insulting, and the person making it should apologize profusely to the entire scientific community and hang his or her head in shame.
 
trainman said:

Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not. Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize?
That is absolutely irrelevant to the claim.

The claim is that their is an audible difference after using the GSIC. Discussing 2 CDs with barely or no audible difference has no bearing on the claim, or the value of DBT.

If you can hear a difference, you will pass the DBT. If you can't, you won't.

Don't try to convince us that the company is selling a product that people willingly buy even though they don't feel they can hear an audible difference.

So, if you can hear a difference, put up. Apply, or be exposed as yet another person who doesn't really believe their claims. We will not be confused by smoke screens.
 
Gentlemen, please...

He's a hit & run troll, or simply a troll. He doesn't know - or care - what a double-blind test is for, etc. He just wants to stir things up. :)
 
Well, a friend of mine once said, and I am sure it is not his idea.

“Smart people can be ignorant, all people are all ignorant about some (or a lot) of things, but smart people can be taught. Stupid people on the other hand will remain stupid no matter how much you try, so the best thing to do is just run away from them as fast as you can.”

Paul

:) :) :)
 
ONE ANSWER TO (ALMOST…) EVERYONE

PSILOAD: I am not going to dream for any excuse but I will welcome any “qualified representative” to be tested under my own “protocol” (but running short of money, you may hear about me again!)

Since you like the movies though, (isn’t it the “clockwork orange” you chose?) you will recognise my warning: “The Trainman. I don’t like him. But my papa says we have to do what the Trainman says, or else he will leave us here for ever and ever”!

AUDEN: “Geia sou kai se sena file moy!” and thanks for your proposals. I’d like to write down a few words about the "cult" though: I didn’t want of course to offend anyone. To provoke, well, maybe. But hey, do you think that I am an “abysmally stupid” person?

Find a proper word, for people that on any argument have a ready made answer (“Did you pass a double blind test?”) and I am ready to repulse about the “cult” since you were offended so much.

TJW:
mean, if someone can claim that quantum dots can affect a property of a Compact Disc that doesn't even exist, (I refer to the waveform reconstruction timing, which is not stored on the disc), then certainly someone could claim that any particular test is not framed properly.

Have you considered the possibility, the inventor of the "quantum dots",(or something of sort) to try to find an explanation for a phenomenon AFTER he experienced it? I am certainly not bounded from the "white papers" of the products. In some cases (cables for instance) they should be able to say that "it works but we do not know how". By the way, why the waveform reconstruction timing is not stored on the disc? What about the jitter of the recording equipment?

Would I undertake to differentiate the two recordings, given the time to become familiar with them, for a million dollars? In a heartbeat. Got the money, in bonds, designated for such a purpose?

No, TjW, I do not have the money. Are you interested though? If you are, the two Naxos cd's cost a few dollars more than my "16$ swindle". This was not my point, of course - and you know it. My point is, why should you so easily regard a foil sticked over a cd a "fraud", without even thinking of testing its effect yourself, but you accept so easily the abbility of a person to distinguish certain very subtle elements between two recordings, without challenging him to pass a double blind test.

Your protocol is NOT particularly unorthodox. It's just not very good. Consider this small change: We listen to the music once, then I flip a coin, and call the result to someone else, who puts something (neither of us knows what) on the CD. Then we listen to the music again. Is it improved?

No it is not improved TjW! What makes you believe that I haven't done this test? I agree though, that to persuade you, I shall be ready to play with your own terms.

69DODGE:
have an accurate stopwatch. If the two recordings differ in length by a few seconds, I could easily distinguish between them simply by timing them. I would not have to listen to the music at all carefully.

Well, what can I say? Clever answer!

If there really is a difference and if someone truly can hear it, can you think of any reason why that person would not be able to distinguish reliably between a treated CD and untreated CD unless he already knew which one was which?

I realy don't get the question, it is a bit confusing - for, if I already know which one is which, I would be able to distinguish reliably. Look for a more general answer below.


RIRION:

Trainman, in case you didn't know: Anyone can hear the difference with your "protocol". And even if they don't, they can still claim they did.
That is true even if you use the SD-RAM card from your digital camera instead of an actual authentic "intelligent chip"... (That's an in-joke among skeptics who have seen both and the plastic case they come in.)

No, Ririon. Many people would be very comfortable to continue listening, the noise would not trouble them at all. That's why, in my "protocol", the subject is chosen.

When I was a youngster, I was ordered by my father to "shut down this rubbish" - it was Deep Purple's "Live in London"! Should I choose him for a test with this same cd?

JJ:

The title of this thread is scurrilous, insulting, and the person making it should apologize profusely to the entire scientific community and hang his or her head in shame.

I'm certainly not planning to hang my head in shame and I am very happy I can express my view without the fear of hanging!

ROGER:

Don't try to convince us that the company is selling a product that people willingly buy even though they don't feel they can hear an audible difference.

How could I try to convince you about that, Roger? The company is selling a product that people willingly buy BECAUSE they feel they can hear an audible difference and they DO hear it.

That is absolutely irrelevant to the claim.
The claim is that their is an audible difference after using the GSIC. Discussing 2 CDs with barely or no audible difference has no bearing on the claim, or the value of DBT.
If you can hear a difference, you will pass the DBT. If you can't, you won't.

Roger you have cut my argument in two, just to end up telling me "if you can hear a difference, you will pass the DBT. If you can't , you won't". I can be clever myself too, you know. I could tell you then, that if you cannot discern any difference between the two cd's, you are not qualified enough to be tested under my own "protocol"!


AND MY GENERAL COMMENTS

Friends

I have already written in the first place, that I do not underestimate the value of a DBT. That means, that, in order to have a final judgment over this matter, I would like to see someone being tested thus. But I underline, that for me, this is not a straitforward answer to the subject.

The DBT, is a powerful weapon in the hands of the ones that reject a claim IN ADVANCE. It is a political argument that downgrades the discussion to a challenge and - in the case of JREF - in a war to conquer or defend 1 million dollars.

Noone of you, for instance, asked me: "We do not want to pay for this rubbish, but if you believe that differences are audible, we would very happily accept a free offer of yourself, or sending to us two cd-r's, one treated and one not, or two songs via the net to judge ourselves". There is only one general answer: "Dare, if you are a man! If not, you are a yellow!"

I am willing to accept the offence from the owner of the 1 million dollars - he, at least, has to lose something, that in our modern world costs more than my reputation!

Waiting for more answers on the matter, I will write few words about a question that may have been asked by 69dodge or maybe not. The question is: "What about those that listen and do not find any differences?"

This is possibly the most serious argument:

What can I answer? I have to acknowledge their experience at least as equal to mine!

Should I find a "reasonable" explanation I could claim that:

- They didn't take the time to judge. Their listening was quick, and the "tweaks" (like the machines themselves) need always some time to "install".

- Their system was not analytical enough. Some systems are more "forgiving" of the faults of the recordings than other systems and it is obvious that they do not overemphasise the more subtle elements. In the hi-fi circles, we call them "musical" systems in contrary with the "analytical" or "monitoresque" ones.

- Some people have the benefit of listening to music only, and totaly neglecting the reproducing elements - something very common if you really like the music played! In this category you may find many musicians, listening through very chip and awfuly sounding equipment. This may seem contradictory but it is not - for behind the music, they mentaly "see" a stave.

Look it in the other way: Someone drives a car and takes a trip to the woods. He is totaly absorbed by the wonderful view and is not interested at all, whether his engine is noisy, the shock absorbers hard, or the helm mechanical. Another driver, may still enjoy the trip, but being a driver-hobbyist himself, would be very annoyed with a conventional car.

The above arguments are the "reasonal-like" ones, and could be used as weapons on a dispute. Just because are such though, I have to admit that for me, are not enough. If someone cannot hear something while I do, there must be some reason I DON'T KNOW. So, in the end I may be really an IGNORANT person mr JJ!
 
Since my humble name is, for some reason, singled out:

trainman said:
Dear friends in the skeptic community

Hi!

Presenting the “intelligent chip”, James Randi, asked: “Just how abysmally stupid can audio crazies get?”

I agree. One of James Randi's greatest weaknesses is his poor manners. I also agree with his statement, I would just have expressed it in more diplomatic terms, myself.

One of them responded – a blind test was about to be agreed to, but the whole discussions led to a “fiasco”.

No, it was not about to be agreed to. Obviously, realizing objectivity would be required, Wellfed wisely, but rather unelegantly backed out.

*snip*

I am one of those “audio lunatics, nuts and crazies” that Mr. Randi derides – I have already successfully used two “intelligent chips”, but also, even more radical devices, like the ones that Peter and May Belt feature, receiving such alike comments by JREF.

I will only comment about the GSIC, not knowing the other devices, but I would comment that they could hardly be more radical.

It would be fun to candidate for your million bucks but it seems almost impossible: You see, it happens to live in the other hemisphere of the planet – in Greece – and travelling to USA, staying, preparing and passing the whole tests is a tough plan, even in the quest of a million.

As somebody already mentioned, going tto the USA would not be required.

I am sure also, that “Golden Sound” is not still ready to support me financially for the task,

"Golden Sound?" Is that the manufacturer? Would not support you for bringing them priceless publicity? The only POSSIBLE reason they would refuse to do so (except if they were wying for the prize themsemes) is that they know quite well that you can't win.

1) First of all, I’d like to ask: What is the main purpose of a blind test?

To reach an objective result.

To investigate a “paranormal” phenomenon, test the “pseudo-scientific explanations” of the inventor of a device, or test the ability of the listener?

It doesn't matter, in this case. The challenge is to distinguish between treated or non-treated disks. You can listen to them, sniff them, taste them, dowse them, it won't matter.

If Wellfed, or me - Trainman - could pass the JREF examination, what would we prove? Would we prove that GSIC really enhances the audio quality of a compact disc, or that we have “paranormal” abilities?

Since the only difference between between the disk would be the GSIC treatment, you would have shown that that treatment made a difference.

And why couldn’t someone claim, that nothing of the sort is proven, “but the protocol was just not framed properly?”

They could. The Randi Challenge is not supposed to convey scientific vindication. You would need to publish test reports in peer-reviewed scientific journals and have your experiment verified by others for that. But winning the Randi million would certainly give you a good start.

The best answer that one could give would be that I proved my ability to earn 1 million dollars. THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

You could say that. It is academic, however, if you can't actually DO it. [/i]

2) The second question I like to add is why Mr Randi’s, Kramer’s and Hans’s sceptic nature does not bother to test the abilities of the music reviewers and commentators. Let me be, a bit more specific:

That is something quite different. They do not claim to detect something objective. What I think of a musical performance is my personal and subjective perception.

I have in front of me, two cd’s from the Naxos label, two historical recordings. *snip* with just a very few seconds difference in the total time of the two recordings.

Does anyone of you claim that a pianist can play twice the same piece, in absolutely the same way? I suppose not.

Of course not, he wouldn't even try. There is bound to be many other differences than the lenght. No musical artist will play the same piece in exactly the same way twice. That is why we go to concerts, otherwise we might as well listen to a recording.

Does anyone of you, believe that you could identify the two recordings under a blind test, even if you were offered one million dollars for a prize?

Yes. Even without using a stop-watch.

If you could really succeed in this task, would that be a “paranormal” phenomenon or not Mr Kramer?

No it would not. The recordings are different. Detecting an objective difference might be difficult, but nothing paranormal.

And could then the various “mediums”, “psychics” and the rest, rejoice that the sceptics are beaten at last?

No.

Now: Every respectable newspaper and magazine has its own music and arts section. *snip* For sure, they could be very quick to tell you which reading of Beethoven’s sonatas they prefer.

Irrelevant.

These people do not sell cheap tweaks and chips to a handful of nuts like me. They write at the most respectable publications. They can destroy a career of an artist and make one of another. These people have power in their hands.

Irrelevant.

I can imagine many of them, along with some hundreds of piano teachers, to claim that they are able to discriminate the various recordings and tell you that Ignaz Friedman in the second recording blurs that phrase or the other. Would you ever ask them to repeat their judgment under a blind test?

I might, but why should I? They are either talkig about an objective difference or about their subjective perception.

Why haven’t you challenged the music reviewers, dear friends?

Because they do not claim to do anything paranormal.

Is it only because their ability to listen through a recording or a concert is theoretically and scientifically possible (in contrary with the absurd claims of Peter Belt or Machina Dynamica), or you are afraid to do so?

If it is scientifically possible, it is not paranormal. Is that so difficult for you to understand?

How come then, the whole planet to trust an aged violinist to fulfil their needs of musical pleasure? Why not to prefer a young and cheerful artist that would have his listening abilities intact? Is it because the audience is not able to hear the difference too? And what about the makers of the instruments? When did Guarnieri or Sax produce their best instruments – at their teens, or fifties?

Are you saying that you think a musical performance is dependent on the musician's ability to hear extremely high tones?

Most of us, audiophiles, when younger, were pretty satisfied when listening to our music through cheap stereo junk walkmans, like our younger brothers and sons that listen now through their ipods and mp3s. Would you claim that they know better, and their 50$ machines sound better than the serious high fidelity stuff of their fathers? What is for sure though, is that they are happier than us!...

Strawman. Nobody here claimed that serious hi fi equipment does not outperform "cheap stereo junk". That is not what the discussion is about at all.

And last – are you, sceptics, sure, that five different people listening to a music reproducing system in blind always apprehend its sound in the same way?

No. And?

TOWARDS MY OWN “PROTOCOL”

What is the biggest enemy of the double blind experiment? The sales of the products, of course!

Why?

You can easily say that a person is somehow deceived, but you have to answer, how could be a more massive sample of satisfied customers deceived, and believe that their 16$ or 200 pounds “swindles”, improve the sound of their cd’s (or the perception of it). The usual answer of yours is that these people are temporally or constantly in a state of self illusion, or that they are ready to believe everything they are told to.

Yes, that about sums it up.

*snip*

There are people that they feel very comfortable to refuse the possibility of sound altering, since James Randi has done it first and nobody challenged him through accepting to participate to a double blind test.

I don't know about that, but I can tell you why I rejected the GSIC: It completely defies the laws of physics on several levels. I already explained how in the wellfed thread, so you can go and read it there.

There will always be people that are extremely satisfied listening music through a cheap Chinese portable and the ones that would not rest even with the most expensive frontline system. There will always be the audio-ignorant and the audio-neurotic. Which kind of listener should I choose to demonstrate the efficiency of a product?

I don't care. As long as you DO demonstrate the efficiency.

For me, a blind test was not needed to acknowledge the impact of some devices unto my perception of music.

Wrong wording. It should be: "For me, a non-blinded test was needed to acknowledge the impact of some devices unto my perception of music." ... You see, in a blinded test, you would not have been able to hear the difference. (I'm still talking about the GSIC)

*snip*
but I managed to create an imaginary “protocol” just for you!

Very appropriated termed "protocol". A real protocol it is not.

*snip* Then, I would place the Intelligent Chip over the platter. And when the white noise would rise minatory from the background, when the harmonics of the higher octaves would be more insistent without being balanced from the already missing bass, when the piercing of the needle of the gramophone to the record would be more apparent, then I would ask my visitor: “Would you still wish to continue?”

Only, it wouldn't work. Or, if you could make it work, you still have time to win a million.



Trainman, it all boils down to this: If the GSIC makes a difference for a CD, it is objectively audible or measurable. If you need to know which CD is treated to tell the difference, you are deluding yourself.

And since there is no way the laws of physics could allow a chip to remotely change the bit pattern etched in metal inside the disk it would have to use magic. Which is the reason it is eligible for the JREF Challenge.

All else is evasions.

Hans
 
Re: ONE ANSWER TO (ALMOST…) EVERYONE

Originally posted by trainman
I realy don't get the question, it is a bit confusing - for, if I already know which one is which, I would be able to distinguish reliably.
Yes, that is exactly my point: of course if you already know which one is which, you'll be able correctly to say which one is which. So I do not understand why some people object to blind tests. All a blind test is, is a test where the person doesn't already know which one is which; rather, in a blind test, he must correctly say which one is which based solely on listening to them. If the only time he can tell them apart is when he already knows which one is which, it's hard to argue that he really does hear a difference between them. A much more likely explanation is this: there is no audible difference, but he thinks he hears a difference because he expects to hear a difference.
 
Re: Re: ONE ANSWER TO (ALMOST…) EVERYONE

69dodge said:
Yes, that is exactly my point: of course if you already know which one is which, you'll be able correctly to say which one is which. So I do not understand why some people object to blind tests. All a blind test is, is a test where the person doesn't already know which one is which; rather, in a blind test, he must correctly say which one is which based solely on listening to them. If the only time he can tell them apart is when he already knows which one is which, it's hard to argue that he really does hear a difference between them. A much more likely explanation is this: there is no audible difference, but he thinks he hears a difference because he expects to hear a difference

And significantly more than one double-blind trial is required. A good minimum, 10 or 12.
 
Re: Re: Re: ONE ANSWER TO (ALMOST…) EVERYONE

alfaniner said:
And significantly more than one double-blind trial is required. A good minimum, 10 or 12.

For any high degree of scientific certainty, yes. Personally I would be impressed with one pass if anyone would test this thing double blind and state with confidence which CD had been treated. Two or three sucessful tests in a row would have me doubting known physics.
 
No, Wellfed did a single test and thought he guessed correctly. A single test is not enough to convince the sitter that he may be wrong.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: ONE ANSWER TO (ALMOST…) EVERYONE

Hitch said:
For any high degree of scientific certainty, yes. Personally I would be impressed with one pass if anyone would test this thing double blind and state with confidence which CD had been treated. Two or three sucessful tests in a row would have me doubting known physics.

Really? Would you be convinced if that I were psychic if I could call two or three coin flips in a row?
 
Trainman, why don't artists and CD sellers/manufacturers use intelligent chips to improve the sound of their CD's to increase sales?

Would you pay a little more for a CD that you like that has already been given the GSIC treatment?

What is your opinion of the sale of "pre-treated" blank recordable CD's?
 

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