"Atta was my jumpseat passenger"...

Big Les

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Ok, this is not directly conspiracy-related, but the implications of it are somewhat:

From this site, being emailed all over the shop too:

This is the response from a retired Delta pilot in response to questions about whether he was planning to see United 93:

I haven't seen the movie, yet, but I intend to when I get the chance. Retirement has made me busier than ever, and I haven't had the chance to see many movies lately.

As a Delta B-767 captain myself at the time of the attacks on 9/11 I was in crew rest in Orlando that morning. I had just turned on the TV in my hotel room only to see the WTC tower on fire, then saw the second airplane hit the other tower. My immediate reaction was "Terrorists...we're at war", followed by the realization that we airline crewmembers had all dodged a bullet; it could have been any one of us flying those planes. As soon as the news stations flashed the first pictures of the terrorists I knew just how close and personal the bullet I dodged was. There, on the screen for all to see, was a man who had sat in my jumpseat the previous July.

His name was Mohammad Atta, the leader of the terrorist hijackers. Atta had boarded my flight from Baltimore to Atlanta on July 26, 2001 wearing an American Airlines first officer uniform. He had the corresponding AA company ID identifying him as a pilot, not to mention the required FAA pilot license and medical certificate that he was required to show me as proof of his aircrew status for access to my jumpseat. An airline pilot riding a cockpit jumpseat is a long established protocol among the airlines of the world, a courtesy extended by the management and captains of one airline to pilots and flight attendants of other airlines in recognition of their aircrew status. My admission of Mohammad Atta to my cockpit jumpseat that day was merely a routine exercise of this protocol.

Something seemed a bit different about this jumpseat rider, though, because in my usual course of conversation with him as we reached cruise altitude he avoided all my questions about his personal life and focused very intently upon the cockpit instruments and our operation of the aircraft. I asked him what he flew at American and he said, "These", but he asked incessant questions about how we did this or why we did that. I said, "This is a 767. They all operate the same way." But he said, "No, we operate them differently at American." That seemed very strange, because I knew better. I asked him about his background, and he admitted he was from Saudi Arabia. I asked him when he came over to this country and he said "A couple of years ago.", to which I asked, "Are you a US citizen?" He said no. I also found that very strange because I know that in order to have an Airline Transport Pilot rating, the rating required to be an airline captain, one has to be a US citizen, and knowing the US airlines and their hiring processes as I do, I found it hard to believe that American Airlines would hire a non-US citizen who couldn't upgrade to captain when the time came. He said, "The rules have changed.", which I also knew to be untrue. Besides, he was just, shall I say, "Creepy"? My copilot and I were both glad to get rid of this guy when we got to Atlanta.

There was nothing to indicate, though, that he was anything other than who or what he said he was, because he had the documentation to prove who he was. In retrospect, we now know his uniform was stolen and his documents were forged. Information later came to light as to how this was done.

It seems that Mohammad Atta and his cronies had possibly stolen pilot uniforms and credentials from hotel rooms during the previous year. We had many security alerts at the airline to watch out for our personal items in hotel rooms because these were mysteriously disappearing, but nobody knew why. Atta and his men used these to make dry runs prior to their actual hijackings on 9/11. How do I know? I called the FBI as soon as I saw his face on the TV that day, and the agent on the other end of the line took my information and told me I'd hear back from them when all the dust settled. A few weeks later I got a letter from the Bureau saying that my call was one of at least half a dozen calls that day from other pilots who had had the same experience. Flights were being selected at random to make test runs for accessing the cockpit. It seems we had all dodged bullets.

Over the years my attitude towards the War Against Terrorism and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been known to be on the red neck, warmongering, rah-rah-shoot-em-up side of things. I've been known to lose my patience with those who say the war in Iraq or anywhere else in the Muslim world is wrong, or who say we shouldn't become involved in that area of the world for political correctness reasons. Maybe it's because I dodged the bullet so closely back in 2001 that I feel this way. I have very little patience for political rhetoric or debate against this war because for a couple of hours back in July 2001, when I was engaged in conversation with a major perpetrator in this war, I came so close to being one of its victims that I can think in no other terms.

I don't mind admitting that one of the reasons I retired early from Delta last May, other than to protect my disappearing company retirement, was because it became harder and harder for me to go to work every day knowing that the war wasn't being taken seriously by the general public. The worst offenders were the Liberal detractors to the present administration, and right or wrong, this administration is at least taking the bull by the horns and fighting our enemies, which is something concrete that I can appreciate. Nobody was taking this war seriously, and it seems everyone found fault with the US government rather than with those who attacked us. I found that incomprehensible.

I also found myself being scrutinized by TSA screeners more and more every day when I went to work, and suffered the humiliating indignity of being identified about half the time for body searches in front of the general flying public who looked at the entire process as being ludicrous. "They don't even trust their own pilots!" accompanied by an unbelieving snicker was the usual response. Here I was, a retired USAF officer who had been entrusted to fly nuclear weapons around the world, who had been granted a Top Secret clearance and had been on missions over the course of 21 years in the military that I still can't talk about without fear of prosecution by the DoD, who was being scanned by a flunkie TSA screener looking for any sign of a pen knife or nail file on my person.

It wasn't until six months after my retirement when my wife and I flew to Key West, FL last November that I was finally able to rid myself of the visage of Mohammad Atta sitting behind me on my jumpseat, watching my every action in the cockpit and willing to slit my throat at the slightest provocation. I missed being a headline by a mere 47 days, and could very well have been among the aircrew casualties on 9/11 had one of my flights on my monthly schedule been a transcontinental flight from Boston or New York to the west coast on the 11th of September. Very few people know that, while only four airliners crashed that day, four more were targeted, and two of them were Delta flights. The only reason these four weren't involved is because they either had minor maintenance problems which delayed them at the gate or they were scheduled to depart after the FAA decided to ground all flights. Theirs are the pilots and flight attendants who REALLY dodged the bullet that day, and my faith in a higher power is restored as a result.

I will see United 93 when I get the chance, and I will probably enjoy the movie for its realness and historical significance, but forgive me if I do not embrace the Muslim world for the rest of my life. The Islamic world is no friend of the West, and although we may be able to get along with their governments in the future, the stated goal of Islam is world conquest through Jihad and it is the extremist Jihadists, backed and funded by "friendly" Moslem governments, whom we have to fear the most. We must have a presence in the Middle East, and we must have friends in the Middle East, even if we have to fight wars to get them. Only someone who has dodged a bullet can fully appreciate that fact.

Best to all,

Pat Gilmore

Absolutely reeks of Urban Legend/political glurge to me, but there is supposed confirmation of the story at the above link, and the good folk at Snopes don't seem to have come to any conclusion about it. It raises many questions of course, not least "why didn't this guy come forward before?". And as well as an obvious political message behind the story, there are discrepancies in the account that cast further doubt; notably the claim that non-US citizens cannot get an ATP pilot's licence.

Any thoughts?
 
Were any of the hijackers pictures even released on the day itself?
 
I'm glad he decided to share his story with Maggie's Farm.. five years later, rather than the feds.
 
Ok, this is not directly conspiracy-related, but the implications of it are somewhat:

From this site, being emailed all over the shop too:



Absolutely reeks of Urban Legend/political glurge to me, but there is supposed confirmation of the story at the above link, and the good folk at Snopes don't seem to have come to any conclusion about it. It raises many questions of course, not least "why didn't this guy come forward before?". And as well as an obvious political message behind the story, there are discrepancies in the account that cast further doubt; notably the claim that non-US citizens cannot get an ATP pilot's licence.

Any thoughts?

I'm skeptical myself and there was absolutely no reason for the political commentary(maybe that was his motive..?).


It does make sense that the hijackers would want to know cockpit procedures and would want to fill in the blanks in their preparation(like observing how the interphone works, which autopilot modes were used in what phases of flight, etc..) because its one thing to read about these systems in manuals, its another thing to operate them.

But why didn't he report the incident to the airline, since it's obvious that Atta was not who he says he was? I find even harder to believe this man did not come forward to authorities in the wake of the attacks. His information would have been very important to this investigation.
 
But why didn't he report the incident to the airline, since it's obvious that Atta was not who he says he was? I find even harder to believe this man did not come forward to authorities in the wake of the attacks. His information would have been very important to this investigation.



Well, I am skeptical too, but just playing devil's advocate... he claims Atta's details all checked out, so I don't see why he would question it.

And in the story he DOES go to the authorities - that very day.

How do I know? I called the FBI as soon as I saw his face on the TV that day, and the agent on the other end of the line took my information and told me I'd hear back from them when all the dust settled.

But yeah... it all seems a bit... "neat" to me. There's some other things that I'm a bit skeptical of... like the claim that there were more attacks. I've heard reports that simultaneous attacks were timed for in the UK, although Inever heard more about these so I've dismissed them, but I'm pretty sure the US investigations would have turned up info about four other flights targetted (otherwise one must ask, how does this guy know???).

-Gumboot
 
Were any of the hijackers pictures even released on the day itself?


I seem to recall seeing some pretty early on, but of course we are so far ahead that I didn't even find out about the event at all until a good 8 hours after it happened.

Also I believe initially some incorrect photos were put up...

-Gumboot
 
If the "stolen" airline uniforms and ID worked so well gaining access to cockpits before 9-11, why didn't the hijackers (or at least Atta) use the same MO on 9-11?

It seems it would have been easier and less risky than the method they eventually used.
 
Looking at the site, there's an additional letter from the "author" where he clarifies that he made a mistake about the ATP requirements, and maintains the story is true. He also gives some details on his career etc...

From the whole debate about our friends at LCF and Bilzilla, I seem to recall there was some sort of database of airline pilots that could be looked up?

Possibly can someone here who's a pilot check this guy out? Should be pretty simple shouldn't it?

-Gumboot
 
Looking at the site, there's an additional letter from the "author" where he clarifies that he made a mistake about the ATP requirements, and maintains the story is true. He also gives some details on his career etc...

From the whole debate about our friends at LCF and Bilzilla, I seem to recall there was some sort of database of airline pilots that could be looked up?

Possibly can someone here who's a pilot check this guy out? Should be pretty simple shouldn't it?

-Gumboot

I just checked the database and there are 5 Pat Gilmores. One is a flight attendant and the other four only have private certificates. I'll check all the P* Gilmores shortly...
 
I just checked the database and there are 5 Pat Gilmores. One is a flight attendant and the other four only have private certificates. I'll check all the P* Gilmores shortly...


:D Nice work.

Reading all of the comments on that website is actually pretty funny. It's amazing how political you Americans are!

I note the author gets himself dragged into quite a discussion with the commentors, which only makes me more skeptical.

Looking throught the 9/11 Commission report, it appears that there was initially a hypothesis that the hijackers accessed the cockpit by posing as airline pilots, however this hypothesis was found to be without evidence.

Me thinks this story might be a by product of that discarded hypothesis?

-Gumboot
 
I just checked the database and there are 5 Pat Gilmores. One is a flight attendant and the other four only have private certificates. I'll check all the P* Gilmores shortly...

None of the P* Gilmores checkout either. I did a search for all Gilmores in Georgia, and there was one 767 pilot.

MICHAEL JOSEPH GILMORE
Address

Street 183 BLUFF DR
City RICHMOND HILL State GA
County BRYAN Zip Code 31324-6115
Country USA



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Medical


Medical Class: First Medical Date: 3/1999




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Certificates

1 of 2

1 2


DOI: 4/15/1996
Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT

Rating(s):
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND



Type Ratings


A/B-727 A/B-737 A/B-757 A/B-767 A/CE-500
 
Could it be this guy?

Name:
GILMORE, CHARLES PATRICK

Airman's Address:
1227 S 1300 E
BOUNTIFUL, UT, 84010-1546

FAA Region:
Northwest/Mountain

Date of Medical:
Dec, 2004

Class of Medical:
1

Expiration of Class 1:
Jun, 2005

Airman Certificates:
Airline Transport Pilot
Airplane Multi Engine Land
Commercial Pilot Privileges only
Airplane Single Engine Land
Flight Engineer
Turbojet Powered

http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?...REEN_RET&fullsearch=NO&max_ret=10&start_ret=1
He claims he retired in 2005.

:confused:
 
Could it be this guy?

He claims he retired in 2005.

:confused:
CHARLES PATRICK GILMORE
Address

Street 1227 S 1300 E
City BOUNTIFUL State UT
County DAVIS Zip Code 84010-1546
Country USA



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Medical


Medical Class: First Medical Date: 12/2004




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Certificates

1 of 2

1 2


DOI: 3/30/2001
Certificate: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT

Rating(s):
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
COMMERCIAL PRIVILEGES
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND



Type Ratings


A/B-737 A/B-757 A/B-767 A/CE-500 A/L-300
Good find. That could very well be the guy as Salt Lake City is a major Delta hub. If that is indeed him, that gives his story a little more weight but the political nature of his posting is still a red flag to me..
 
Good find. That could very well be the guy as Salt Lake City is a major Delta hub. If that is indeed him, that gives his story a little more weight but the political nature of his posting is still a red flag to me..


To be honest I don't see that as a red flag. You Americans are political. :p I've come to accept it.

Surely it's possible that he DID have Atta as a jumpseat passenger, and yet ALSO feels strongly enough about this political issue that he goes into a big long political rant about the "War of Terror"?

His politics should be irrelevant, shouldn't it? What matters are the facts. Did Atta sit in his aircraft?

Although there's some mysterious aspects that lend weight to the story (this latest find is an example), I'm still leaning towards it being a fake.

-Gumboot
 
Yeah sounds plausible, the fact that his medical expired on Jun, 2005 fits with his assertion that he retired in 2005.
 
I was just thinking, I'm impressed that he remembered Atta over a month later. Maybe it's one of those scenarios where you modify your memories to include new information. Maybe it wasn't Atta. Maybe it was just some random airline pilot.

-Gumboot
 
To be honest I don't see that as a red flag. You Americans are political. :p I've come to accept it.

Very true, but I would think a veteran airline captain could go 3 paragraphs without making a political statement while relating an extraordinary story.

Surely it's possible that he DID have Atta as a jumpseat passenger, and yet ALSO feels strongly enough about this political issue that he goes into a big long political rant about the "War of Terror"?

His politics should be irrelevant, shouldn't it? What matters are the facts. Did Atta sit in his aircraft?

Although there's some mysterious aspects that lend weight to the story (this latest find is an example), I'm still leaning towards it being a fake.

-Gumboot

This would be an extremely difficult thing to confirm as well. Lets say we were able to find out that Atta did fly on his ship that day, I believe jumpseat riders still have a seat assignment in the boarding records, so there would be no way know if Atta was sitting in the cockpit. Seemingly the only way to confirm this would be to find out who the F/O was and contact him.
 
This would be an extremely difficult thing to confirm as well. Lets say we were able to find out that Atta did fly on his ship that day, I believe jumpseat riders still have a seat assignment in the boarding records, so there would be no way know if Atta was sitting in the cockpit. Seemingly the only way to confirm this would be to find out who the F/O was and contact him.


However the 9/11 Commission Report has records of all flights undertaken by Atta, and none of them match the one claimed by this guy:

July 1, 2001: Atta flies from Boston to New York City.
Early July. 2001: Atta picks up travel tickets to Spain at travel agency in Paterson, New Jersey.
July 3, 2001: Atta flies from Newark to Fort Lauderdale.
July 7 or July 8 or July 9, 2001: Atta flies from Miami to Madrid, Spain via Zurich.[30][31] Reports claim final plans for the attacks are set.[32]
July 19, 2001: Return flight to America, Fort Lauderdale, Florida via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Late July, 2001: Atta flies to Newark, New Jersey to meet with other hijackers in the area.
July 30, 2001: Atta flies back from New Jersey to Florida.

-Gumboot

ETA. According to the 9/11 Commission, when Pat claims Atta was a passenger on his flight from Baltimore to Atlanta, Atta was actually in New Jersey meeting with other hijackers.
 
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