Atheist at catholic college...

[Scottch]

I have a quandry in my life journey and I would love to hear any suggestions from such an enlightened group of individuals.

I have just received my dream job - a tenure track position as a professor of education in which all of my family's needs will be met as long as I don't screw up. I will be teaching math and science methods courses for the education program.

BUT!! it is at a Catholic college - and I am a strong agnostic/weak atheist. I have talked to the the Father...er...pastor...er...head thingy of the church and he has stated that nothing is sacred and that everything...as long as there is a valuable discussion that validates both sides...can be discussed. Apparently the church looks at issues from both sides and regards education above all else.

I hope this is true, but I need to teach critical issues/evolution/religion is separate from science/etc. Do you think I should perhaps lay low for a while and make sure that I get tenure before I rock the boat - or should I go out - guns blazing - and damn the masses (er - no pun intended)?

I think I know what I need to do, but since I have gotten my doctorate, I am not sure I am thinking clearly - with that whole ivory tower thing and everything.

Thanks

Scott

 

[Beth]

My understanding is that the official stance of the catholic church accepts that evolution occurs - they just assume that it is divinely directed.

As long as they are aware of your beliefs and don't have a problem with it, I would worry about accepting the position. Up to you regarding whether to test the waters before or after getting tenure. My only advice would be that if it's not going to work out for you, best to find out quickly.

 

[Lonewulf]

My understanding is that the official stance of the catholic church accepts that evolution occurs - they just assume that it is divinely directed.

The pope is trying to change that, from what I understand...

 

[tkingdoll]

If you want tenure, and you think that the gentle approach is the safest, then do that. There aren't many Catholics here so I'm not sure you'll get much perspective from that side, and it sounds like that's what you need - confirmation that a gung-ho approach would damage your standing in a Catholic school.

Personally, I would wait and see. Until you're actually in there, you have no way of getting a measure for what's appropriate.

The Catholic church does officially recognise evolution, although I read a thread around here somewhere that suggested that might be changing...?

 

[Tez]

If you are teaching the methods (as opposed to specific content) then I think you should be able to do it in a manner acceptable to both sides.

 

[Scottch]

Hmm..

But the issue is whether or not I lay low for a while and perhaps "convert" (what an ugly word!) the individuals at the college to truly understand what it means to teach science in the public schools or give up and let them hire another Catholic teacher and deprive a large number of students understanding the true nature of science.

I have already decided to accept the position and lay low for a while during the tenure process (make sure science and religion are separate entities). I have been unemployed for a while and this is a stroke of great luck for my family.

Is there anyone who lives a secular life and works in a religious setting and can resolve these issues?

Scott

 

[Scottch]

My understanding is that the official stance of the catholic church accepts that evolution occurs - they just assume that it is divinely directed.

Thank you Beth -

I have thought of that - but evolution really isn't the only issue. The students have come to this college with a Catholic background - but most of them will teach in the public schools system.

I have, in my mind, a great curriculum based on many great ideas (Baloney detection from Carl Sagan, secular humanism from Marvin Gardner, Isaac Asimov, etc) that preclude having any sacred tenets like religion. But these ideas may not help my tenure process.

Do I lay low until I am tenured, or do I shush up my principles? Again - I have an idea - but would like to hear all of your suggestions.

Scott

 

[Scottch]

If you are teaching the methods (as opposed to specific content) then I think you should be able to do it in a manner acceptable to both sides.

Tez -

Is there a separation between the two? In order for me to teach the methods of teaching, the students need to have a firm grasp of the content.

If they are invalidating core values of biology such as evolution - do I ignore it for a few years until I am tenured? I guess it is a question of not teaching critical skills and what is important about science for two years so that I am guaranteed teaching critical skills for thirty (when I am tenured).

Yet - I still feel "dirty" for those two years...

Is teaching correctly for multiple years in the future a valid argument for "shutting up" for two?

Scott

 

[Tez]

I guess I dont understand to what extent you are responsible for deciding the actual content of the subjects they are learning to teach? e.g. If I was forced to teach creationism (or something else ascientific) as if it were science, well then I'd have a problem. If it were more along the lines of "keep some things in the religion box and some in the science one", then I say bite your tounge for 2 years, get tenure, and then give the hell! I would ask to see the terms of a tenure contract NOW though - in my experience they vary widely from place to place, and in fact they normally have "moral turpitude" clauses, ( who knows what the heck that could involve at a Catholic college... )

 

[chracatoa]

Well, I can tell you something that happened here in Brazil. A few months ago there was a famous talk radio show featuring a debate between theists and atheists. The funny thing is that a professor representing atheism in that program works in one of the largest Catholic universities here (he was introduced as a professor at that university). He's still there, and we do not have tenure in private universities.

OTOH, if I were you I would lay low. I would not lie or anything, but I would only say something about my views if someone specifically asked for them.

 

[Scottch]

If I was forced to teach creationism (or something else ascientific) as if it were science, well then I'd have a problem. If it were more along the lines of "keep some things in the religion box and some in the science one", then I say bite your tounge for 2 years, get tenure, and then give the hell!

Already done. I have verified that I can teach what I want - no prescribed curriculum - but the dean of the college does check it and may place a large role in the validation of my tenure. He is religious.

I appreciate all of the suggestions - I do think that "discretion is the better part of valour" and will continue with being "soft" for the first few years without compromising my core principles. "Give them hell" might not be the best battle cry at this stage of my career - but perhaps "give them critical thinking skills" may be better.

With deepest appreciation for the discourse - I again am happy to be part of this wonderful, thinking community.

Scottch

 

[Scottch]

OTOH, if I were you I would lay low. I would not lie or anything, but I would only say something about my views if someone specifically asked for them.

Exactly. I cannot see how a university with science and mathematics as majors have not dealth with agnostic or atheist teachers. I just would rather not press the point in conversations with others in the community.

It is just a little unique to have a social science (rather than a natural science) professor profess views that are not as woo-woo as my colleagues. I have sat silently through multiple prayers and such and always honor their time and will always honor their traditions and customs - even if I don't understand them.

Thanks for the input.

Scottch

 

[rjh01]

If the dean of the college checks what you teach, maybe you should ask the dean what he thinks about evolution and you teaching it.

I do not see you need a good grasp of science to understand the process of science. Show how the process works on the basic stuff. Like what falls faster, a feather or a brick?

 

[Scottch]

I do not see you need a good grasp of science to understand the process of science. Show how the process works on the basic stuff. Like what falls faster, a feather or a brick?

Unfortunately, you do need to have a good grasp of science in order to teach it. I do not feel ethically comfortable passing students to teach science - even at the elementary level - without a firm grasp of the content of science and how it works.

It is the lack of foundations of content AND processes in science that is the downfall of most of the educational institutions and why we are having such issues in today's public schools. Just because you understand the process of science does not mean you can teach science. "Basic stuff" creates a rote memorization of skills and lower level thinking - I want students to be excited about science and critically examine the fundamental issues of scientific exploration.

I understand that the public opinion about teaching is that it is pretty easy. It is quite pervasive that we are all experts in education because we spend most of our childhood and adolescence life in education. I disagree. Teaching is much more intense and requires planning, questioning skills, social skills, and the knowledge of the subject in order for it to work. I would like to suggest that most individuals do not have a favorable impression of their education and some reform is needed to revolutionize the science curriculum.

However, since my hands are tied until I reach tenure, I believe I shall do my best to instill critical thinking skills and teach as much content as I can to these teachers until I get tenured. Then...expect some thoroughly enlightened and powerful science teachers to come out of my program.

Scottch

 

[senorpogo]

Hmm..

But the issue is whether or not I lay low for a while and perhaps "convert" (what an ugly word!) the individuals at the college to truly understand what it means to teach science in the public schools or give up and let them hire another Catholic teacher and deprive a large number of students understanding the true nature of science

As a product of Catholic school, I have to say that Catholic education does not deprive it's students of a full understanding of the true nature of the scientific method. In my experience, evolution was NEVER questioned, God was NEVER brought up in any non-religious classes, and solid, logical thought was taught in every discipline (outside the religious stuff).

I realize it's a tough point of view to have unless you've experienced it yourself, but the Catholic christian is very, very, very different than the fundamentalist christian. (And, as an aside, the American Catholic is an even more unique animal than the non-American Catholic. And the Jesuits trump all.)

Don't judge Catholics too harshly, that's all I'm saying. There are many very good Catholic universities throughout the States.

As for the original question, I say take the position. From what I understand, tenure is tough to get. If you can, get it. And, unless you're going to a university very different from the one's that I know of, I seriously doubt that you'll have some vicar, bishop, or saint looking over your shoulder.

Edit: I should say that I received my education in the United States. I know that catholicism isn't the same around the world and, I'm sure, their educational institutions aren't the same either.

Sorry for being conceited and assuming that everyone is from America, but that's what we do.

 

[kc440_]

Scott, this has been my experience. I had 13 years of Catholic teaching. I was brought up in the religion, but am not a Catholic. I went to a Jesuit college. This is the protocol: If you're a Jew but an atheist, they don't care, as long as you're not a woman. If you were a Catholic and are not any longer, some of the priests will look down on you. If you were a priest and married, the "celibate" priests will try to hide their anger at you. If you're a woman and was Catholic but aren't anymore, they'll hate your guts and wait for you to make one false move. And if you're a woman, never admit to being an agnostic or atheist if you want to keep a job there.

So to them it's if you're Jewish they don't care what you believe in. (Unless you're a woman.) If you were Catholic but are not anymore you'll meet with some hostility. After all, Catholicism is the "one true religion." If you were a priest and left, some of the priests won't bother with you. If you were a priest and got married, they'll shun you because of your dalliances with the unclean. If you're a priest and you leave to be with another man, they'll try to sweep you under the rug.

I hope that answers your question, i.e., keep your opinions under your vest until you've taught there for awhile. I think you can have a discussion with your class re Evolution vs. Creationism as long as you, as teacher, don't show a personal prejudice for either side. That's how you can get around it.
kc440_

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I have a quandry in my life journey and I would love to hear any suggestions from such an enlightened group of individuals.

I have just received my dream job - a tenure track position as a professor of education in which all of my family's needs will be met as long as I don't screw up. I will be teaching math and science methods courses for the education program.

BUT!! it is at a Catholic college - and I am a strong agnostic/weak atheist. I have talked to the the Father...er...pastor...er...head thingy of the church and he has stated that nothing is sacred and that everything...as long as there is a valuable discussion that validates both sides...can be discussed. Apparently the church looks at issues from both sides and regards education above all else.

I hope this is true, but I need to teach critical issues/evolution/religion is separate from science/etc. Do you think I should perhaps lay low for a while and make sure that I get tenure before I rock the boat - or should I go out - guns blazing - and damn the masses (er - no pun intended)?

I think I know what I need to do, but since I have gotten my doctorate, I am not sure I am thinking clearly - with that whole ivory tower thing and everything.

Thanks

Scott

Explain that you're an atheist.

Explain that you won't put up with religion over science.


If the priest agrees then I don't see a problem.



The only problem is the current situation in the Vatican where the pope is becoming increasingly hostile towards Science.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Or you could pull a Trojan Horse on them. Sneak your critical thinking in and gradually convert them all. Stay as long as possible to try to educate as many students as is possible.

 

[Scottch]

Or you could pull a Trojan Horse on them. Sneak your critical thinking in and gradually convert them all. Stay as long as possible to try to educate as many students as is possible.

Ahhhh! Finally - someone with either extreme optimism or supreme sarcasm explains what I should do.

Thanks all - I have taken the job and will make sure that scientific thinking will be taught in a thinking organization. Tenure will be great, but I will make sure that my ideas will never be compromised. If tenure versus lying is an issue - I promise I will stand to my convictions.

I know I can fly under the radar for two years until I receive tenure and make sure that critical thinking skills are taught.

You guys are the greatest! Thank you for the discourse.

Scottch, Ph.D.

(not that the Ph.D. means anything - but I thought you would want to know)

 

[Questioninggeller]

I have just received my dream job - a tenure track position as a professor of education in which all of my family's needs will be met as long as I don't screw up. I will be teaching math and science methods courses for the education program.

I think that is positive, not negative. You are going to have religious minds you can introduce into skepticism. Further, your students can pass that knowledge on to the kids they teach.

When I started working on graduate work, I was suprised that there are so many PhD's in serious fields that are religious.