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Astro Teacher - astrology test

Hokulele

Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Hokulele
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Astro Teacher said:
It is nearly impossible to "test" Astrology in this way. Natal astrology especially falls into the difficulty of validating astrology in this manner. I always tell my students of astrology that is it very hard to "prove" anything of Astrology within Natal Astrology because it belongs to the advanced Judicial Branch which is only for those who have achieved superior knowledge and understanding of celestial forces after first practicing Natural Astrology.

That branch of Natural Astrology includes areas that are better suited to "test" since it includes Weather Forecasting, and Medical Astrology, which is much easier to test scientifically than is Judicial Astrology. This is because the analog data from cases in these fields can be easily used to prove the validity of astrological principles as they relate to the Physical World, and not the metaphysical.

One of the problems some skeptics have in understanding this fact is that they are under the false impression that "astrology" is reduced only by Natal Astrology, which it surely is not. The physical, or material world is easier to measure.

The metaphysical world of natal astrology is very hard to measure since there exists no one method for measurement of the happenings in a person's life applying conventional tools of measurement. Do attempt this is folly since it requires a system of conventional measurement that does not exist.

It is very difficult to prove anything in the natal area of astrology as it is a very complex metaphysical field and can only be measured by those who have had many years of astrological study, and who have first mastered the Natural Astrological Branch.
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Why do you assume I have little experience with astrology?

The astrologer in the OP came in with a particular claim, and this protocol is being designed with that claim in mind. In other words, this is a test of the astrologer, not astrology. If a metaphysical claim can be made by natal astrology, it would be possible to design a test of that claim.

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

Actually, sorry Kuko, this would be better off in a thread of its own.
 
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Hokulele said:
Why do you assume I have little experience with astrology?

The astrologer in the OP came in with a particular claim, and this protocol is being designed with that claim in mind. In other words, this is a test of the astrologer, not astrology. If a metaphysical claim can be made by natal astrology, it would be possible to design a test of that claim.

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

Actually, sorry Kuko, this would be better off in a thread of its own.
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There is no way to "test" natal astrology in this manner, much less any other that is known at this time. It is impossible. Also, there are those who would use such a so-called" test of this protocol to then say that whichever astrologer passed or failed this so-called "test" is a statement on Astrology itself. It's been done before.

Astrology has never been disproven. What we find today are little more than opinions built on preconceived biases by those with no knowledge of the subject itself.

Natal astrology is advanced, and is only dealt with by advanced astrologers. This area of what is the judicial branch is very complex and not for the weak-minded, or for those who lack many years of practice, knowledge and experience. To even presume to test it by any kind of conventional protocol will end in failure.

Rather, test Natural Astrology, which deals with physical manifestations that can be measured for accuracy and effect in the Material world.
 
Hokulele said:
What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?
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Many things can be determined. I've helped hundreds of people understand how to find a personal rhythm in life by reading their personal nativities, and helping them to understand their own transits in a useful way.

In natal astrology, this is where personal belief helps a person to come to terms with making their own way through life. This is not merely an "intellectual" way of living life, but a fuller, spiritual way in understanding how to work one's way through their own personal transits.

Culture, environment, upbringing, etc. play important roles as well, and this can be seen in the nativities of individuals by an advanced astrologer. Yet, the most important thing is that whatever is provided by the astrologer must be able to be used by the person beyond a mere "personality report," which, again, is worthless, even for testing.
 
Hokulele said:
Please clarify, are you saying that natal astrology determines which choices people should make regarding personal decisions?
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No, their own free will chooses. But, each person has a individual constitution, that inclines them towards certain kinds of personal decisions. I've seen this many times.

The whole purpose of the astrologer is to guide the person back to their own personal "season," so to speak. The troubles that often come to people do come about by making decisions in the wrong season, or, with the wrong weather. This happens very frequently and what we know as "history" is full of events that have come about because of ignorance of times and seasons.

For instance, most people call October the 10th month, yet, October is the eighth month, not the 10th. "Oct" means the number 8. The true new year begins with the ingress of the Sun into tropical Aries, which occurs in mid-March. People are living out of time, in the wrong understanding of time, and this causes problems in the world.
 
Astro Teacher said:
No, their own free will chooses. But, each person has a individual constitution, that inclines them towards certain kinds of personal decisions. I've seen this many times.

The whole purpose of the astrologer is to guide the person back to their own personal "season," so to speak. The troubles that often come to people do come about by making decisions in the wrong season, or, with the wrong weather. This happens very frequently and what we know as "history" is full of events that have come about because of ignorance of times and seasons.

For instance, most people call October the 10th month, yet, October is the eighth month, not the 10th. "Oct" means the number 8. The true new year begins with the ingress of the Sun into tropical Aries, which occurs in mid-March. People are living out of time, in the wrong understanding of time, and this causes problems in the world.
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As you have described it here, this would be a very easy claim to test. Would you care to participate in such a test? If so, I will request a moderated thread (to avoid derails, such as this one) and put up a protocol.
 
Hokulele said:
As you have described it here, this would be a very easy claim to test. Would you care to participate in such a test? If so, I will request a moderated thread (to avoid derails, such as this one) and put up a protocol.
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I cannot see how you would design a protocol to prove natal astrology. I've never seen one developed yet as a test though many have tried. This area would require experienced astrologers to rate such tests, and even then, those astrologers would have to be advanced enough not only to construct such a test of natal astrology, but also to come to a point of assessment of any results in this area.

This natal area is very much metaphysical, and is so difficult to read, much less prove through tests, that I cannot see how it would be done to be able to come to any kind of determination that would be seen as valid in this time and era.
 
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Astro Teacher said:
I cannot see how you would design a protocol to prove natal astrology. I've never seen one developed yet as a test though many have tried. This area would require experienced astrologers to rate such tests, and even then, those astrologers would have to be advanced enough not only to construct such a test of natal astrology, but also to come to a point of assessments of any results in this area.
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Would you care to participate in such a test?
 
Astro Teacher said:
I don't have a problem with it, however, I would like to see how the protocols would be arranged since I am skeptical that it can even be done in natal astrology.
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Thank you.

I will request a moderated thread and put out a call for volunteers. In that thread I will post a proposed protocol that you, and any one else, may comment on. I am requesting moderation for that thread in order to keep off-topic discussions to a minimum as well as in-thread sniping. I will also be requesting that posts from the various volunteers be kept out of the thread, to avoid leaking of information.

If a protocol cannot be agreed upon, or if a test is completed, I will request that the moderated status be removed, so the thread will be open for any and all commentary.

Is this acceptable?
 
Hokulele said:
Thank you.

I will request a moderated thread and put out a call for volunteers. In that thread I will post a proposed protocol that you, and any one else, may comment on. I am requesting moderation for that thread in order to keep off-topic discussions to a minimum as well as in-thread sniping. I will also be requesting that posts from the various volunteers be kept out of the thread, to avoid leaking of information.

If a protocol cannot be agreed upon, or if a test is completed, I will request that the moderated status be removed, so the thread will be open for any and all commentary.

Is this acceptable?
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Sure it is. The protocol will be difficult, so you will have to ask me if the examples used are even worth testing considering my views on natal astrology and testing in the metaphysical area.
 
Here is a first draft of a protocol for testing the type of astrology as practed by Astro Teacher. Based on the posts linked below, it appears that he/she is using a form of electoral astrology to predict auspicious times and dates for particular events and to help a person choose which decisions would be most in harmony with their personal chart.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5267529#post5267529
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5267576#post5267576

The protocol is developed to test whether or not a noticeable harmony exists beyond basic coincidence or chance.

1. A pool of volunteers will each submit the necessary natal data (birth time, location, etc.) for Astro Teacher.

2. In addition, each person will submit a list of personal decisions they have faced sometime in the past, along with the date and location of each, what choice they made, and whether the outcome was beneficial or not in their opinion. Please note, a decision with a "bad" immediate outcome can have long-term "good" effects. For example, you may choose to apply for a job for which you are rejected (bad), but make a professional contact that leads to an even better job (good). I am thinking that having 4 or 5 decisions per volunteer would make later steps in the test easier.

3. I will collect the list of volunteer names and the decisions for each via Personal Message only and send the list to an anonymous individual for randomization (assigning random letters to the names and numbers to each decision). The name of that individual will kept secret from both myself and Astro Teacher by forwarding the list to one of the moderators and having them choose the person to do the randomization.

3. Astro Teacher will then choose and post the combinations regarding which volunteers he/she wishes to chart and which decisions will be analyzed. For example, Astro Teacher would post publically a list such as the following:

A 2, 4
D 3
J 1
L 1
M 1, 2, 5

Please note, I would appreciate if someone with better statistical skills that mine could figure out what would be a reasonable number of people/decisions to test in order to generate a credible pass/fail rating.

4. Astro Teacher will then use the information provided to determine what decision would have the greatest positive outcome for the volunteer and/or what decision would have the greatest negative outcome. For example, if the decision were whether or not someone should move to Chicago to be with a significant other, Astro Teacher's recommendations could look like one the following:

Moving at all would be disastrous. Don't do it.
Move, but only in the Aug. 15-20, 2004 timeframe. Any later would not end well.
Move, but only after Sept. 15, 2004.
Have the significant other move to your city.

5. One or two other volunteers would also create lists of recommendations for those decisions.

6. All sets of recommendations will be collected and assigned code names.

7. All sets of recommendations will be posted publically, and the names of the volunteers whose charts were selected will be announced by the anonymous source.

8. Those volunteers would then review the sets of recommendations and indicate which would have been the most relevant to their situation, and which most matches what really happened.

9. General discussion and mayhem ensues.

Please note, it is highly unlikely that a test of this size will generate numbers statistically significant enough to be considered definitive (unlike the major tests sourced by Neally in another thread), but it may reveal whether someone who is highly experienced in astrology can provide guidance more practical or reliable than someone who is simply guessing.

Also note that this is a first draft and may undergo substantial revision before any test begins. With that in mind, I have put out a call for volunteers, but please do not send any birth/decision data until everyone agrees as to what is required.

And just to reiterate:

Anyone who wishes to volunteer for this test, please contact me via PM only and only provide the requested data. Anyone who posts their participation publically will be excluded from the test.
 
Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.
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This was just a first stab at a procedure, but as you note, the devil is in the details. If Astro Teacher agrees that this could be the framework for a reasonable test, the next step would be to determine what information he/she needs and if there is any restriction or preference on the type of life-decisions to be included.

My first thought as to the latter would be things such as:

- Job applications/offers/acceptance
- Educational choices (secondary school, graduate school)
- Personal improvements (diets, exercise plans, warddrobe makeovers)
- Non-emergency medical procedures (including professional counseling)
- Living arrangements (roommates, spouses, girl/boyfriends)
- Children
- Pets

and so on.
 
Astrological Rules & Guidelines

Professor Yaffle said:
Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.
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Thanks for asking Professor. I know. If a birth time is known, then add it, if not, just the date of birth will do, and the geographic location. Also include your current geographic location if different than the location of birth. People often move away from where they were born and live in different cities. That changes the angles in their charts across time zones.

Oh, and one more thing: I have to enter in longitude and latitude, so it would really save me a lot of time if those who send their birth dates also send the name of the city/country they were born in, and the longitude/latitude as well. I will check this myself, but it will save time. Add the longitude/latitude of places where you currently are located as well since I may have to progress the natal chart to the current location. With time changes, also come changes in angles.

If anyone tries any funny stuff like sending me bogus dates, playing stupid games, I will immediately trash it from the list, put you on ignore forever, and not look back. I'm busy enough as it is, so if you are real, I will be real. If you are friendly, I will be friendly. If you will be mean, I will be Darth Vader in a bad mood. Don't go there.

Some DO NOTS -

Do not ask me when you will die. I don't do those morbid requests. Never did. Never will.

Do not send me false data. If you are so clueless as to play games then you should not have even bothered. I have ways of determining if the birth data is true, and I will ask you a few questions that you will not be able to anticipate beforehand to check if you are one of those "waste his time" kinds of people. Don't go there and you will get better results.

Edited by Professor Yaffle: 
Edited to remove portions not suitable for the moderated thread


Sincerely,

A.T.
 
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Astro Teacher said:
Do not send me false data. If you are so clueless as to play games then you should not have even bothered. I have ways of determining if the birth data is true, and I will ask you a few questions that you will not be able to anticipate beforehand to check if you are one of those "waste his time" kinds of people. Don't go there and you will get better results.
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Actually, if you can tell a false from a real birthdate, we have quite an easy test right there. Could even be blind in that the participant would not know whether their real birthdate, or a slightly altered one has been sent.
 
One other thing I should mention, volunteers do not have to be members of the forum. If anyone has partners/siblings/others that can be counted on to participate honestly, and you can reliably transmit information between them and this thread (copy/paste of e-mails, for example) I have no problem in including their data in the test. The more options, the merrier. I would prefer to have a larger pool of options from which Astro Teacher can randomly choose origin data for casting charts. Also, if we have to disqualify any volunteers, having more options helps.
 
I agree. What information is required to tell whether received birth data is true or false?
 
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