Anything is technically possible, it is more important to ask if something is probable, and if assuming past miracles adds anything to our knowledge. It is pretty useless to assume any past exceptions to a rule, because being an special case precludes the idea of making future predictions.The idea said:
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
You're going to have to be more specific. There are a couple of loaded terms there. What do you mean by "miracle"? Or "replicated"? What kind of historical event are you referring to?The idea said:
Maybe someone understands the concept of a miracle but doesn't see the difference between a certain kind of event never occurring and a certain kind of event being impossible.
Here's an example. It might be that no one in city A will ever walk from intersection B to intersection C carrying a slip of paper that has this message printed on it. However, provided that it is physically possible for someone to walk from intersection B to intersection C, it would seem to be possible for someone to walk that route while carrying such a slip of paper.
Here's an example. It might be that no one in city A will ever walk from intersection B to intersection C carrying a slip of paper that has this message printed on it. However, provided that it is physically possible for someone to walk from intersection B to intersection C, it would seem to be possible for someone to walk that route while carrying such a slip of paper.
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
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Depends what you mean by "miracle". If you mean an event the probability of which is vanishingly small, then of course they can, indeed have and will continue to occur. If, on the other hand, you mean an event which is impossible and requires the intervention of "God" then my answer is no, miracles never have and never will occur.
Allow me to elaborate;
80 year old woman pulled from rubble of Iranian city 8 days after it was destroyed by an earthquake, (her first words were "can I have a cup of tea", she must be English really
). This is a highly improbable event, but not impossible. It was reported as "miraculous", but was in reality just extremely good luck for the woman.
Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!
Allow me to elaborate;
80 year old woman pulled from rubble of Iranian city 8 days after it was destroyed by an earthquake, (her first words were "can I have a cup of tea", she must be English really
). This is a highly improbable event, but not impossible. It was reported as "miraculous", but was in reality just extremely good luck for the woman.Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!
Does assuming that there haven't been any past miracles add anything to our knowledge?Zero said:
Are you saying that if a rule broke down at some time in the past, then the rule cannot be used to make predictions about the future? Perhaps you are simply saying that it is unlikely that the exceptions themselves will obey any recognizable rule?Zero said:
For the purpose of answering this poll, the survival of the 80 year old woman 8 days after the earthquake would NOT count as a miracle. Thank you for the example.wollery said:Depends what you mean by "miracle". [...]
80 year old woman pulled from rubble of Iranian city 8 days after it was destroyed by an earthquake, (her first words were "can I have a cup of tea", she must be English really
Maybe we can distinguish between an event which is thought to be impossible and that cannot be explained by any known mechanism and an event which is actually impossible. Obviously an event which is impossible cannot possibly occur. However, I don't think that the matter at hand can be quite so easily disposed of.wollery said:
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
So, by asking if it is possible for a miracle to occur, are you asking if it is possible for the impossible to happen?The idea said:
If that's the case, it's a simple answer.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Miracles can only exist in our imagination...
If something does happen... It's not a miracle..
If something does happen... It's not a miracle..
Abdul Alhazred
Philosopher
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The idea said:
Before I vote, you'll have to define 'miracle'.
Is it something contrary to the laws of physics? Or will a merely improbable divine intervention count as a miracle?
That is something on the order of Joshua praying the sun to stand still cannot happen, but a conveniently timed series of plagues is a possibility.
The idea said:
No historical events can be fully replicated. At a macro level they can be approximated (i.e. I can walk up the stairs for a second time) but of course on a micro level everything has changed (the carpet on the stairs is a little shorter, the temperature is slightly different).
Any event could be so long as you have.....
Complete knowledge of EVERYTHING to do with the circumstances (down to a sub-atomic level) AND the ability to run the event through sufficient times for the same set of chaotic elements to have the same values
so practically not
Of course this leaves the door open for miracles if we're very lax at recording the input parameters and the outputs so that it seems that miraculous things happened
It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. Suppose someone you know made a small, one-of-a-kind object by hand from clay and gave it to you. A few years later you are alone in a room with the door closed and the window closed and you are wide awake and clear-headed and there is no noise or other distraction. While rearranging objects on a high shelf, you accidentally knock down the one-of-a-kind clay object. It hits the floor and breaks into many pieces.Upchurch said:
You are upset about the mishap and throw a blanket over the pieces and spend fifteen minutes staring at the blanket and thinking about how unfortunate the accident was. Then you lift up the blanket and see the one-of-a-kind clay object whole and unbroken.
Now, observe that:
(1) This is a description of an experience.
(2) There is no way to explain how, in the ordinary course of events, it could occur.
(3) It would do you no good for someone to try to argue that it is impossible. If you actually witnessed the events, then you would have to conclude that some events that are thought to be impossible can nevertheless sometimes occur.
I wanted to invoke the concept of replication as it is used in experimental science or the million dollar challenge. How many concepts of replication are there? I don't have any particular kind of historical event in mind.Upchurch said:
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
I dunno, in an overly-poetic sense, the birth of every child is a miracle. It's a miracle everytime I beat a friend of mine playing the new Harry Potter Quidach (sp?) game.Diogenes said:
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Re: Re: Are Miracles Possible?
Which is a little circular since we're basing the definition of a term based on the real world using a hypothetical situation which may not be absolutely reflective of the real world.
That isn't to say that there may be phenomena out there that we currently can not, or just simple have not, explained yet, but are, in principle, capable of explaining. A miracle, then, would be a phenomena that, in principle, could not be explained as a result of naturalistic causes.
edited to add: after reviewing the poll choices, though, I have to admit that I don't know if any miracles have occured or will occur. I have no reason to believe that they will or have, but I cannot say definitively that they won't or haven't simply because I haven't experienced everything that has or will happen.
In leu of there being no possible phsyical explination, then I'd have to say that miracles are not possible.The idea said:
Which is a little circular since we're basing the definition of a term based on the real world using a hypothetical situation which may not be absolutely reflective of the real world.
That isn't to say that there may be phenomena out there that we currently can not, or just simple have not, explained yet, but are, in principle, capable of explaining. A miracle, then, would be a phenomena that, in principle, could not be explained as a result of naturalistic causes.
edited to add: after reviewing the poll choices, though, I have to admit that I don't know if any miracles have occured or will occur. I have no reason to believe that they will or have, but I cannot say definitively that they won't or haven't simply because I haven't experienced everything that has or will happen.
If something continues to happen, then it's not a miracle.Diogenes said:
Can miracles exist in our imagination? I imagine a miracle occurring. Having a very lucid imagination, I then apply your argument. Here, within the world of my imagination, that weird event actually occurred. Therefore it's not a miracle.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Upchurch said:
Sounds like your imagination to me... Point made..
Tricky
Briefly immortal
This could only be a miracle if it was proven, witnessed and verified that the piece was actually broken and actually reassembled itself. It would have to make all other explanations completely impossible. Ideally, it would be better if it reassembled in front of your eyes, not while covered with a blanket.The idea said:
In life, this sort of "miracle" happens all the time. It is almost always the result of someone having a thought and believing that thought to be reality. Since one cannot be a fair judge of how "wide awake and clear-headed" one's self is, the most likely and sadly mundane possibility is that the person imagined it being broken. To disprove this, one couldn't be alone in the room. Some other reliable person would have to verify that the object was in fact broken and reformed.
This is precicely the reason that anecdotes cannot be considered evidence. No matter how honest a person is, he is capable of making a mistake in observation.
Just last Friday I saw a newspaper torn into tiny shreds, but then rejoined to be whole again. I was only a few feet away, wide awake and very clear-headed and I can verify that there the newspaper was torn and that there was no other newspaper visible to replace it. Yes indeed, your eyes and mind can deceive you.