Apparently, my RPGs have gone woo.

[Lonewulf]

http://www.sjgames.com/thaumaturgy/

"AUTHENTIC THAMATURGY!"

Written by professional occultist Isaac Bonewits, the only person ever to earn a degree in Magic from the University of California, this book describes how to create "realistic" magical systems for roleplaying games. It also reveals the "real magical" roots of Magic: The Gathering. This book is a lot of fun to read! It is not part of the GURPS system, or any other specific game, so any GM who likes modifying his game's magic systems will get a lot of ideas here.

It links to Isaac's site here:

http://www.neopagan.net/

This website contains materials by and about Isaac and Phaedra Bonewits and their topics of expertise: Druidism, Paganism, Witchcraft, magic(k), ceremonial magic(k), liturgical design, polytheology, polyamory, tarot, etc. It includes updated versions of many of their writings now floating about the Net, excerpts from current and upcoming books, song lyrics (serious, silly, bawdy, and invocatory), curmudgeonly rants about Satanists and other Christian Fundamentalists, and other items to educate, enlighten, annoy and/or amuse. This is an archive site, so “old” items are numerous.

I am sad.

 

[Hokulele]

"Isaac Bonewits"

* Snork *


Sorry, that name just got me stuck in a giggle loop. Once I come out of it, I will try to read the link seriously.

ETA: Oh good grief. From the reviews:

I have always wanted to find a system that took into account the Laws of Nature. Thanks!
-- Don Smallwood

 

[e-sabbath]

It's, ah, not to be taken seriously. Steve Jackson Games always publishes neat stuff. This was during the same time they published Ken Hite's Suppressed Transmission, and reprinted the Principia Discordia. The first edition was from Chaosium in '78, so it was also a long-out-of print _really_ _cool_ book.
http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Intro.html

http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Reviews.html

It's basically taking the reasonably authentic Western tradition of magic... not the fantasy sort of thing, but John Dee and Isaac Newton's magic, and adapting it and examining it, and saying why and how it would, should (does) work. In fact, it's quite interesting, and a good way to punch holes in wooish magic systems, you see the holes and failures in 'em. Sort of 1/10th woo, 40% kidding on the square, and half anthropology and RPG.

Oh, and the Laws of Nature? More the Laws of Magic.

http://deoxy.org/lawsofmagic.htm

If you play RPGs, especially White Wolf, you'll probably have run into some of them at some point. This book codified 'em back in '78, and influenced a lot of fantasy novels as well.

The LAW OF SIMILARITY Having an accurate physical or mental representation of something facilitates control over it. This one is fairly obvious in its usage—having a model, picture, or other representation of your target (like a voodoo doll) gives you power to effect the target. Look alikes are alike.

The LAW OF CONTAGION Objects or beings in physical contact with each other continue to interact after separation. Everyone you have ever touched has a magical link with you, though it is probably pretty weak unless the contact was intense and/or prolonged or repeated frequently. Magical power is contagious. Naturally, having a part of someone's body (nails, hair, spit, etc.) gives the best contagion link.

Those laws.

 

[lionking]

There are un-woo RPGs?

 

[Lonewulf]

There are un-woo RPGs?

Yes. RPGs that don't pretend that their systems are real.

You think that all RPGs claim that their systems are real, or are "based on reality"?

It's basically taking the reasonably authentic Western tradition of magic... not the fantasy sort of thing, but John Dee and Isaac Newton's magic, and adapting it and examining it, and saying why and how it would, should (does) work. In fact, it's quite interesting, and a good way to punch holes in wooish magic systems, you see the holes and failures in 'em. Sort of 1/10th woo, 40% kidding on the square, and half anthropology and RPG.

So, "AUTHENTIC THAUMATURGY" essentially demonstrates how magic would, and should (does) work, of a certain kind? That still sounds like woo to me.

 

[Ravenwood]

There are un-woo RPGs?

Lets see...Privateers & Gentlemen, In Harms way & Boot Hill come to mind...

 

[darnell11]

I play RPGs with some friends and they all seem to really believe that their dice pick them. I kept rolling low numbers and someone told me to pick another die, and when I said that wouldn't help me any everyone pointed out that it really does because the die has to pick you. So apparently some like you and some don't. Everyone uses the same die for every game because they believe it likes them. I was told to pick a few and roll them to see what happens-if you get one that seems to land on high numbers mostly, it likes you. I thought they were joking at first but they are serious.

Has anyone else came across this belief?

 

[e-sabbath]

Oh, sure, it's woo of a kind, but it's... hm. It's not 'pulled out of my ass New Age woo', it's 'Well, we have traditional Western rules of magic, this is the logic' woo. Think of it as being equivalent to a RPG that told you how Taoist magic works, and based its system on it. D&D is based on the stories of Jack Vance, sort of, and so it's called a Vancian System, insofar as the magic goes. This book is based on the authentic rules of thaumaturgy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaumaturgy
Basically, if John Dee wanted to cast a spell, these are the rules he followed. Or Nicholas Flamel, which is a (real) name you may remember from Harry Potter. Ms. Rowling is apparently quite well read, and Harry's magic, while quite simplified, is descended from Dee's work, and related to this sort of thing.

I'd never want to use his _system_, but Mage: The Ascension is pretty solidly based on his principles. It's what you call a toolkit book, like most GURPS supplements. It helps you think about how you're playing your own game, and you can used bits of it to make your game more, ah, if not real, plausible.

Ah! Okay, get this. It's the difference between basing swordfighting in a RPG on what the author saw in swashbuckling movies... and basing swordfighting in a RPG on an actual manual of arms of the 16th century. Will a person with half a grain of sense actually think they can fight with a sword after reading either? Probably, ah, not. But one is more authentic than the other.

As far as dice myths? Some of them come from the early days, when dice rounded off fairly easily. I've got a D20 that's almost round from my copy of Top Secret. And yes, it's a D10 twice.

That _specific_ dice myth, though? No. The ones where a die that has been rolling too many ones has to be put out of its misery... in full view of the rest of the die bag, sure, and the theory that a die only has so many 20s in it? That one's popular.

But it's really one of those ha-ha only serious superstitions. Nothing really to it, but it's kind of amusing and... well. It _worked_, didn't it? (except when it didn't. Confirmation bias, got to love it.) It's like a baseball player's lucky hat, or touching the plate with the left foot first.

 

[TheDoLittle]

There are un-woo RPGs?

Amber... but that's only because no one plays it.

Big Eyes, Small Mouth... the most hyper-realistic RPG out there.

 

[ponderingturtle]

http://www.sjgames.com/thaumaturgy/

"AUTHENTIC THAMATURGY!"

You realize they published that book about 10 years ago, and to my knowledge have not had any reprints?

You also know that they have published the Principia Discordia?

 

[Blackwell]

"Isaac Bonewits"

* Snork *


Sorry, that name just got me stuck in a giggle loop. Once I come out of it, I will try to read the link seriously.

ETA: Oh good grief. From the reviews:

I have always wanted to find a system that took into account the Laws of Nature. Thanks!
-- Don Smallwood

[/I]

If "Bonewits" put you in a giggle loop, "Smallwood" should have thrown you into a coma.

 

[TheDoLittle]

I play RPGs with some friends and they all seem to really believe that their dice pick them. I kept rolling low numbers and someone told me to pick another die, and when I said that wouldn't help me any everyone pointed out that it really does because the die has to pick you. So apparently some like you and some don't. Everyone uses the same die for every game because they believe it likes them. I was told to pick a few and roll them to see what happens-if you get one that seems to land on high numbers mostly, it likes you. I thought they were joking at first but they are serious.

Has anyone else came across this belief?

I have seen that sort of behavior not from my regular group, but I see it quite often at cons, and usually with the RPGers.

One con, a few years back, someone created a whole "Dice Sacrifice" ceremony (no, he didn't originate the urban legend, but he did draw from it). He had this one die he proclaimed "always rolled a 1" and gathered his dice, dice bags, and asked the other con-goers to contribute their dice, gather them all in an arena he made, and set the die on fire as an example to all the others.

It was going to be a yearly thing, a kind of yearly "Bread and Circuses", but the convention staff felt even though there were adequate safety precautions taken, it was best not to repeat the event.

Since the next con I'm going to is going to be at Rice University, I was thinking we could get the chemistry department involved and come up with some creative techniques involving "Polyhedral Motivation".

 

[Garrette]

Lets see...Privateers & Gentlemen, In Harms way & Boot Hill come to mind...

I played Boot Hill once and had a blast until the end. We were bad guys who went on a rampage through the first town we came across. It went well until the skinny scruffy guy with a limp and a mule shuffled out of the sheriff's office and said, "Matthew, ya best get on out here," and a redhead named Kitty came out of the saloon...

But on topic, I've never come across players who brought woo beliefs into RPGs, though it has been a long long time since I played them.

 

[Thomas]

I have never liked that RPGs like WoW spew out all the woo arts, and I don't care whether they claim it fantasy or not, but otoh, then it's just a game; nothing to go Gestapo about. I dunno, cheap fantasy or something? I'm more into historically loaded games, or plausible sci-fi RPGs (which I'm still more or less searching for).

I signed up for beta testing the RPG Pirates of the Burning Sea, but I guess my system wasn't top$ enough, because they never responded to my request. However, I don't really play games anymore at all, so who cares. I'll buy it when it goes gold perhaps, you know; anything to combat global warming.

 

[Lonewulf]

You realize they published that book about 10 years ago, and to my knowledge have not had any reprints?

Okay, so it WENT woo. And then stopped.

You also know that they have published the Principia Discordia?

Okay...

But does this really have to do with a book being made by a "professional occultist" about "how real magic works"?

 

[e-sabbath]

If you'd be so kind as to examine post 8, again? Thank you.

 

[Hellbound]

Actually, especially with the quotes and such, I don't see this as SJ Games going woo. Rather, if you want a more "historical" basis for your magic system...i.e.-something that works along the same lines as the "real magic" some people belive/have believed in, this is a good resource.

I don't see this as any more woo than using "real" conspiracy theories for an Illuminati-style game, or inserting supposed "real" artifacts into a game (like the Ark of the Covenant or the Necronomicon or the Holy Grail). Or, for that matter, it's no more woo than an RPG campaign focusing around aliens visitng earth and abducting people, or most other sci-fi concepts. Or even a game where a handful of elite soldiers routinely overcome outrageous odds and single-handedly take on hordes of machine-gun toting thugs, or survive a hand grenade explosion from 10 feet away in a condition that leaves them able to fight.

A lot of RPG ideas come from myth and legend that is (by some) or at one time was thought to be "real", or from "mundane" situations and activities that are, at best, highly improbable. The whole idea is escape from reality, in some form or fashion. Frankly, I'd see this as good background research, rather than any sort of promotion of woo. In fact, I think if SJ Games had any thought htat this was really real, they wouldn't offer it for sale

[OT rant]And I hate the way RPG is slapped on any system that lets you improve a character. WoW (and most other MMORPG's) are as much an RPG as the old "choose your own adventure" books. I think of these as "real-time tactical" games, as they have many of the same elements of RTS games (real-time, decisions based on unit capabilities, unit upgrades and incresing abilities, resource manipulation (mana, crafting), etc) but for a much smaller scale. There's not much role-playing to play; the focus is by far on the tactical side. But that's my own peeve [/OT rant]

 

[Lonewulf]

If you'd be so kind as to examine post 8, again? Thank you.

I read it, but I'm not convinced.

Reading the flavor script, it sells itself as "real, authentic thaumaturgy". I'm not supposed to take it seriously, but then it says that the author is an "occultist".

Let's just put it this way: Can you cast spells, or use magic in the real world? The book seems to suggest that it's possible. Maybe it's not saying as such, but that's the way it seemed to me, and you haven't really seemed to dismiss that notion in my mind.

Otherwise, if it's just selling the history of actual belief in magic and how to use it in RPGs, then that's cool. In fact, I actually want to pick up a copy. It's still cool stuff to use, as long as it's actually based in historical belief instead of "what I made up at the grocery store today"-type fantasy that's so prevalent today.

Actually, especially with the quotes and such, I don't see this as SJ Games going woo. Rather, if you want a more "historical" basis for your magic system...i.e.-something that works along the same lines as the "real magic" some people belive/have believed in, this is a good resource.

Well, I just have a question... what's an occultist, and why would one be good for writing books?

Wait, I also have another question:

How can you be the only person to earn a degree in anything? According to the selling script:

Written by professional occultist Isaac Bonewits, the only person ever to earn a degree in Magic from the University of California

How can you be the only one to gain a degree? There's only one professor, and you're the only student to apply?

 

[Fnord]

Back when I used to do tarot readings, I found that the "Deck Of Many Things" from AD&D 1st Edition worked just as well - which means it didn't work at all, but I could make the client think that it did.

But there was something else ... it was only after RPG's started becoming popular in the 1980's that I noticed a simultaneous codification of magical principles among New Age believers. For instance "I Abjure Thee" became the wooist way of saying "Get Lost" - from the AD&D school of Abjuration magic.

I play Traveller - "Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far Future" - and the only overtly wooist concepts are Psionics, Faster-than light travel (through "Jumpspace," of course), and Gravity control.

 

[Thomas]

How can you be the only one to gain a degree? There's only one professor, and you're the only student to apply?

Interesting exams and pop quizzes

There's a wide range of academic degrees, from associate's degrees to doctoral degrees. An academic degree doesn't necessarily mean a professor title.. Well..