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Anti-theists avoid morality question

His paper has a false start.

"Unfortunately, their approach has been one characterized more by noisy rhetoric than reasoned arguments, and they have particularly failed in their attempt to present a coherent system of morality that in no way rests on a belief in the supernatural."

Is he suggesting that his morality rests on the supernatural, and that the only thing keeping him from engaging in psychopathic behaviors is his belief in the supernatural? As the moral standards of societies have changed over time, the Bible, to cite only one "sacred" text, has not kept pace. The Bible approves of genocide, in the case of neighboring towns which worship different gods, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, applauds slavery, and relegates women to a lowly status. Our moral standards have, sometimes haltingly, advanced in the past three millenia and religion has not been the source of that. Religious arguments were held up in defense of American slavery (to cite only a relatively recent moral struggle) and precipitated a split in the baptist church, as religious arguments were on both sides of the issue. The belief that slavery was the natural condition of black people due to the "Mark of Ham" was apallingly common.

It is not incumbent on anti-theists to create a moral structure divorced from religion because our morality is not religious in origion, it stems from evolutionary traits of altruism and reciprocity that have been observed in numerous other life forms which neither believe nor disbelieve in god(s). The question of theodicy is irrelevant to morality.
 
Ah, freshman...

The last line of the article says it all: "Bryce Taylor is a freshman in Silliman College."
 
I don't understand how people can present the same tired arguments, as though they are fresh and original.
 
I was about to post a long comment, but I see that ImaginalDisc has made the points that first struck me.
 
I don't understand how people can present the same tired arguments, as though they are fresh and original.


To this kid, they probably are fresh and original. He hasn't been involved in this type of dialog for years and years like we have.
 
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To this kid, they probably are fresh and original. He hasn't been involved in this type of dialog for years and years like we have.

Well, there's an element of dishonesty and/or laziness to it.
 
This has a massive thread going at phryngula where plenty of comments have been made. From my perspective, probably the most significant point that has been made has been, why does he think that a non-supernatural basis for morality has NOT been developed? There are whole disciplines dedicated to this type of stuff. This is where the comment, "He's a freshman" is most relevant. Just because he isn't aware of it (i.e. his paster hasn't told him about it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
It's funny, cause today on my lunch break, I was reading this.

Which is an article from Joshua Greene, who studies the neurological basis of morality. The artilce address the dangers of the Naturalistic fallacy in his field of study.
 
Well, there's an element of dishonesty and/or laziness to it.


No doubt about that. Perhaps that notion could be pointed out to him. Of course, others that have proposed his argument don't seem to care those many times it has been pointed out to them, so . . . .
 
No doubt about that. Perhaps that notion could be pointed out to him. Of course, others that have proposed his argument don't seem to care those many times it has been pointed out to them, so . . . .

Isn't it funny how they display their laziness and dishonesty when discussing morality?
 
Morality

I often wonder what makes Christians feel that they have any true moral structure whatsoever. “God told me to behave like this.” Hardly seems like a credible basis for ethics. Even assuming that the Christian God is good, which is a massive assumption, following his orders has no internal morality; it is simply the action of a mindless drone.
 
I was about to post a long comment, but I see that ImaginalDisc has made the points that first struck me.

I assure you, that had more to do with timing than any special perspicacity on my part. Same ****, different interlocutor.
 
I don't understand how people can present the same tired arguments, as though they are fresh and original.

I think it has to do with the non-thinking mindset: they get this flash of inspiration and say, "I bet nobody's ever thought of this before!". The problem is, they don't take the next step and say, "let's go find out."
 
Help! ImaginalDisc swallowed a dictionary!

Quiver with trepidation sans surcease at my adriot use of the language in my endeavor to inveigle the abecedarian tyro to evince that he is but a jackanape!

I'm practicing to be a Republic Serial Villain in retirement. Too purple?
 
I think it has to do with the non-thinking mindset: they get this flash of inspiration and say, "I bet nobody's ever thought of this before!". The problem is, they don't take the next step and say, "let's go find out."


Kind of like when they bring up Pascal's wager.
 
Kind of like when they bring up Pascal's wager.

The way I see it is like this:

There's probably 10-20% of the population that actually wants to know things. The problem is that knowing things is hard work. Knowing one thing usually means you have to find a bunch of other things out first. And then, when you do, it isn't neat and tidy. There are all kinds of complications and conditions on that knowledge. It yields answers like "in X% of people with condition Y, Z can have effects A, B, and C". The plus side is, when they know that, they know it well. They want to know the lower case "t" truth.

Another 70% or so of the population just wants to be told what to believe. They don't want to have to do any work. They don't, and don't want to, understand what "in X% of people with condition Y, yadda, yadda, yadda" actually means. They want to know, "is Z good for you or bad for you?" They want to know the capital "T" "Truth"

The last 10-20% is comprised of the people who want to be in power. They play on the second group's desire for capital "T" "Truth" by taking enough of the lowercase "t" truth to make it sound good, spin it with whatever the flavor of the month is (morality, security, fear, etc) and feed it to the second group as capital "T" truth.

When the first group (let's call them "seekers" for convenience) find a problem in the third group's (let's call them "priests" although they don't necessarily have to be religious leaders) statements, they make an effort to correct it, except that the second group (we'll call them followers although they need not be religious followers) doesn't understand it and so look to the priests for clarification.

The real problem is that the priests desire for power means they aren't necessarily interested in lower-case "t" truth. If they have an agenda, the upper-case "T" truth might be an outright lie. If the lower-case "t" truth goes against their agenda, the followers never hear about it. Usually, though, it's just enough lower-case "t" truth so that, in case someone with a rudimentary understanding actually does check, they aren't caught in a complete lie.

I think this explains quite a lot about the persistence of these fallacies. A priest with a religious agenda introduces the followers to the Watchmaker argument. The followers swallow it whole. The seekers tear it to shreds, but of course, the followers never hear that part. So it just keeps going and going and going. The followers who do hear the refutation ignore it either because the priests told them it's wrong or because they don't understand it.

This is especially true for fallacies dealing with evolution. Evolution is fairly complicated and to really understand it requires at least a cursory knowledge of several different disciplines. The priests exploit this by misrepresenting what evolution really says, and then giving a simple, clear, capital-"t" Truth the followers can repeat over and over again. I've long said the people who disagree with evolution don't have the slightest understanding of what they are arguing against.

As long as the followers outnumber the seekers, I don't see this changing any time soon.

Of course, this is all just speculation and I might be wrong in a number of places, but it makes sense at least on the face of it.
 
As an atheist, is there any reason why I shouldn't view this article as contemptible bigotry? That is certainly how it makes me feel.

It's just more of the same "As my feeble brain is incapable of imagining or understanding a natural explanation, it must be magic."

The supernatural explanation is a cop-out for the weak minded.
 

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