Anti-Randi Comments in Fortean Times

Brummbar

New Blood
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
21
JREFers are encouraged to take a look at the recent (#190) issue of Fortean Times, wherein an article on a supposed 'telekenetic' attacks Randi as being dishonest, sloppy and self-promoting in his investigation and presentation of the case on behalf of CSICOP.

Does anyone know Randi's side of this?

(Randi, are you reading this...?)

I don't know if the article is online, but the issue is on the stands (at least here in NY) and I will post fair-use excerpts if requested.
 
BrainFromArous said:
JREFers are encouraged to take a look at the recent (#190) issue of Fortean Times, wherein an article on a supposed 'telekenetic' attacks Randi as being dishonest, sloppy and self-promoting in his investigation and presentation of the case on behalf of CSICOP.

Does anyone know Randi's side of this?

(Randi, are you reading this...?)

I don't know if the article is online, but the issue is on the stands (at least here in NY) and I will post fair-use excerpts if requested.

Yes please.
 
Generally, I find Fortean Times to be fairly low on the woo-woo meter. At times they even do a decent job of debunking or offering less than paranormal explanations for things that set the Woo crowd all tingly. That, and I like their monthly column on strange deaths...

I'm heading to my stockpile to look up the referred to article tomorrow. If nothing else, see who the authors of the article are and what, if any, prior history they have with Randi.
 
The article, about a supposed telekenetic named Tina Resch, is by William Roll and Bob Rickard.

Fortean Times is not institutionally hostile to skeptics from what I can see. In fact, this same issue has several mentions of UFO type-stuff being debunked by recently declassified military info - Project Skyhook and those spy balloons, for example.

Their forum on this issue contains several appreciative mentions of Randi - coupled with disappointment over how Randi behaved (based on the charges the author of the article makes, which they assume to be warranted).

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18153

Perhaps this is a case of Mr Roll settling some kind of score with Randi?
 
As presented, the Tina Resch story is tragic. But that sort of thing always makes me suspicious - I must be a cynic. It makes me feel that Roll is only putting one side of the story.

Roll treats Resch's psychokinetic powers entirely at face value. He was there, I wasn't, fair enough, but that, for me, also calls into question his objectivity. Furthermore, unless he made copious notes at the time, I can only assume he is relying on his recollection of his dealing with Randi from a long time ago. My impression of this article was less of level headed reportage and more of an exercise in axe-grinding.

If you accept Roll's version of events, it's true that Randi doesn't come off too well. But I imagine Randi's recollection would be substantially different.
 
BrainFromArous said:
Their forum on this issue contains several appreciative mentions of Randi - coupled with disappointment over how Randi behaved (based on the charges the author of the article makes, which they assume to be warranted).
What are these charges exactly?
 
JamesM said:
...
If you accept Roll's version of events, it's true that Randi doesn't come off too well. But I imagine Randi's recollection would be substantially different.
BrainFromArous said:
...Perhaps this is a case of Mr Roll settling some kind of score with Randi?
You two must be psychic.

A bit of Googling and I came up with this from the forerunner of randi.org -
I was invited, by the local press and by her parents, to visit there and look into the phenomena. When I arrived I was turned away at the door at the insistence of William Roll, a parapsychologist who specializes in "poltergesit" claims, who had by then taken up residence at the Resch home and was having a grand time hyperbolizing the events for the media.

Later in the piece Randi summarises the tragic way in which Tina Resch's life played out and ends with this -
Tina had already started her life in an awkward manner, being an adopted child who wanted desperately to find her birth parents, was being blocked in that attempt, and then pulled the "poltergeist" stunt to attract the media's help. She used them -- and the parapsychologists -- but to no avail. To be
perfectly fair, the media and the parapsychologists used her, too. She went from one disastrous situation to the other, finally to two marriages and two divorces, then to the present sentence of life in prison for torturing and killing her own daughter.
The blame for this tragedy must be shared by those who promoted the media circus that Tina began.
 
I would be deeply suspicous of Roll's account of the events. Events Randi has been invovled with seem to have a 'half-life' where those most stung feel they write an article 15 years or more later saying how bad Randi was and adding their own revisionist sping to everything.

In the mid-90's the 'victims" (fools) of the MacLab incident tried to paint the whole fiasco as borderline indutrial sabatoge by Randi. All they lacked was Randi setting bombs in the lab or driving bulldozers through the walls. They neatly sidestepped the fact that they failed to do basic research that would have revealed that the kids they were testing were faking everything.
 
I did a little Googling myself and it seems like despite this being the "most documented poltergeist case of the 20th century", there is only one photo - a phone flying across the room, in easy reach of Tina Resch. The video that was collected shows Tina cheating.

Sounds very much like a disturbed, abused little girl trying to get some attention. Randi's involvement seems to have been minimal, having been turned away at the door.

Here's a link with the picture (half way down): Tina Resch
 
Some interesting article on this subject,

Here

One wonders if Roll's complaints are another version of Wilson's. Considering that Roll kept Randi from doing much, he's pretty hypocritical to complain about he methods. Randi's evidence is pretty damning.

BTW, I really hate google groups beta...Way to mess things up guys!
 
JimTheBrit said:
What are these charges exactly?

Ok, I have the issue in front of me.

FORTEAN TIMES Issue #190, Jan 2005

Article: "Unleashed" (pp 38-44)

Authors: Bob Rickard, adapting from "Unleashed!" by William Roll and Valerie Storey.

(The original piece is written in the first-person, that person being William Roll.)

I will use the term "Point Of Contention" for those elements of the article which struck me as being against Randi.

POC 1 - Randi's Arrival & Purpose (Page 40)
Randi is presented as some kind of "hit man" dispatched by CSICOP to deal with Resch. CSICOP itself is described a group which "specialised in debunking", which to my knowledge is not accurate.

As Randi himself often points out, skepticism and debunking are not the same. Generally speaking, debunkers come into a situation with a conclusion in mind (name, that it's not what it's claimed to be) whereas skeptics do not take an advocacy position.

Debunkers are more like police detectives looking for clues to gather info on a crime; that a crime has been committed is taken as a given.

Now, as it happens, skeptics often wind up "debunking," but it bears repeating that they ARE prepared to render a positive verdict if the evidence bears one out.

POC 2 - Randi Refused Access (Pages 40-41)
Roll recalls that Joan Resch (Tina's mother) forbade Randi from entering the house because his "showmanship" had "offended" her. She was willing to let others in, but not Randi. This is accompanied by a sidebar newspaper clilpping of the confrontation.

Roll takes Joan's side and presents her wounded feelings as genuine, expressing "surprise" that two scientists accompanying Randi wouldn't go ahead without him.

What Roll leaves unsaid is - to me - the likeliest reason WHY Randi was singled out for exclusion: he knows what to look for. He was the one person there whose very expertise was deception and counter-deception, the person whom it would be the hardest to fool.

POC 3 - PA Panel Talk (Page 41)
Roll accuses Randi of "ignoring" the written reports of Resch's TK from witnesses when giving his presentation at a panel discussion of the Parapsychological Association in August, 1984.

One of these 'ignored' peoples was Fred Shannon, described as the only witness in attendance at the panel.

(Note, btw, the implicit endorsement of Resch's TK through the term WITNESS. How does one 'witness' something that never happened?)

Randi's talk centered on a selection of Shannon's photos, the article says, and came to the conclusion that Resch was faking it.

Roll presents Randi's words as "distressing" and an "attack" on Shannon's "intelligence and ability to observe what was happening right in front of him"

Shannon was "treated like a fool," the article says.

More on Mr Shannon's observational prowess shortly.

POC 4 - Randi's Dishonesty (Page 41)
Covering Randi's paper for Skeptical Inquirer the following spring (regarding the Resch TK case) Roll point-blank accuses Randi of misrepresenting key events - calling Randi "as master of sleight of words as well as of hand."

Randi, Roll claims, misrepresented his (that is, Roll's) location, words and actions - taking special offense at a crack Randi made about his eyeglasses!

Now, I wasn't there; Randi was. Therefore these matters of misrepresentation (if that's what it is) should be addressed by Randi himself.

POC 5 - Photo Phun (Page 42)
Randi is also taken to ask for his treatment of the now-famous Flying Phone picture (reproduced on page 40).

By the author's admission, there were two people present for this TK display; reporter Mike Harden and Fred Shannon. Fred, the one with the camera, wasn't looking.

Go back and read that again. Fred Shannon "had discovered that the only way to catch the telephone in flight was to take his camera down and look away; he would then snap a picture whenever he caught a glimpse of movement."

So the only person there with the means to objectively document this event was deliberately NOT doing so - and yet Roll has a problem with Randi's conduct.

POC 6 - Dismissal of Witnesses (Page 42)
The article complains that Randi "dismissed" the accounts of PK happenings given by local electrician (and "family friend...." hmmm) Bruce Claggett.

Not having read Randi's SI report, I don't know how dismissive it was towards Claggett. However, none of this changes the fact that Claggett is yet another person claiming to have seen something which, if true, would rock the sciences of physics and neurology to their foundations.

These PK witness testimonies have interesting things in common. Whether Roll, Harden or Claggett, each person was alone (or the only one looking), each event was irreproducible and there is no objective record for any of them. Even the most famous photo, the Flying Phone, is useless since the camera operator only snapped the picture after seeing it in flight from the corner of his eye.

POC 7 - Caught Red-Handed By Randi (Page 42)
'Amazing'ly, Randi is even taken to task for catching Tina in a clumsy trick involving pulling over a lamp on the day reporters were at the house. Roll admits it was a trick, but insists that the other events - you know, the ones he and others "witnessed" - were of a whole different type.

POC 8 - Circumstances & Conclusion (Page 42)
Roll writes:
"Above all, Randi failed to realize that the occurrences took place under informal circumstances in a private home, not in a laboratory."

I hardly think someone as accustomed to these investigations as Randi is would "fail to realize" such a thing. In fact, I'd bet that's exactly why he and two scientists with him were so insistent that he be allowed to check out Resch's home.

As for "informal circumstances," is that some kind of code for total lack of test protocols or controls?

So was Randi supposed to be LESS skeptical in such an environment...?

Roll writes:
"He went on to claim that the occurrences around Tina, if genuine, would amount to 'a repeal of the basic laws of physics.'"

Um... yes, it would.

Roll writes:
"Physics does not say that objects cannot be affected without tangible contact. The Moon revolves around the Earth and magnets attract pieces of iron without visible contact."

I will say only this: notice how Roll has to switch TANGIBLE for VISIBLE, since even his own two examples don't support his case.

Roll concludes:
"Recurrent spontaneous psychokenesis requires an extension of the laws of physics, not their repeal as Randi imagines."

I don't think Randi is the one imagining things here.

That's the end of the Randi-relevent section of the article.
 
Thanks for that - very thorough!

I wonder if Randi will fit his view on this case into the Commentary later today?
 
BrainFromArous said:
Ok, I have the issue in front of me.


...
(bunch of nonsense from FT removed, along with Brain's proper slicing and dicing)


Brain, what do you expect?

It's just like this administration, "keep on message", keep repeating what you want people to believe, repeat it over and over and over and over, and pay no attention to the facts.

That article is spinning so hard I'm surprised the magazine doesn't exhibit precession.
 
jj said:
Brain, what do you expect?

It's just like this administration, "keep on message", keep repeating what you want people to believe, repeat it over and over and over and over, and pay no attention to the facts.

That article is spinning so hard I'm surprised the magazine doesn't exhibit precession.

True enough, JJ, but what vexes me is that FT is usually better than this. Indeed, this very issue (190) has no-nonsense treatments of both the "Amityville Horror" hoax and UFO silliness made even MORE silly by recently declassified military information.

Oh, well.
 
POC 1 - Randi's Arrival & Purpose (Page 40)
Randi is presented as some kind of "hit man" dispatched by CSICOP to deal with Resch. CSICOP itself is described a group which "specialised in debunking", which to my knowledge is not accurate.

False, and false.

Randi is not affiliated with CSICOP. JREF was created because Randi had to leave CSICOP because of possible financial ruin for CSICOP from Geller's frivolous lawsuits.

CSICOP is not involved in actual investigations of any kind. "Debunking" is, correctly pointed out, not the same as skepticism. That Randi has 1 million dollars out doesn't sound to me as if his mind is made up, quite contrary.

POC 2 - Randi Refused Access (Pages 40-41)
Roll recalls that Joan Resch (Tina's mother) forbade Randi from entering the house because his "showmanship" had "offended" her. She was willing to let others in, but not Randi. This is accompanied by a sidebar newspaper clilpping of the confrontation.

Roll takes Joan's side and presents her wounded feelings as genuine, expressing "surprise" that two scientists accompanying Randi wouldn't go ahead without him.

What Roll leaves unsaid is - to me - the likeliest reason WHY Randi was singled out for exclusion: he knows what to look for. He was the one person there whose very expertise was deception and counter-deception, the person whom it would be the hardest to fool.

I'm not sure why this is a point of criticism against Randi - quite the opposite: As is pointed out, Randi knows what to look for. If anything, Roll should recognize this, and realize that as a paranormal claimant, you don't get to decide who checks you out.

POC 3 - PA Panel Talk (Page 41)
Roll accuses Randi of "ignoring" the written reports of Resch's TK from witnesses when giving his presentation at a panel discussion of the Parapsychological Association in August, 1984.

One of these 'ignored' peoples was Fred Shannon, described as the only witness in attendance at the panel.

(Note, btw, the implicit endorsement of Resch's TK through the term WITNESS. How does one 'witness' something that never happened?)

Randi's talk centered on a selection of Shannon's photos, the article says, and came to the conclusion that Resch was faking it.

Roll presents Randi's words as "distressing" and an "attack" on Shannon's "intelligence and ability to observe what was happening right in front of him"

Shannon was "treated like a fool," the article says.

Testimonials are worthless, especially from people with a vested interest in a phenomenon being true. Photos, OTOH, can be investigated. I'll venture a wild guess here: Roll doesn't say whether or not he agrees with Randi that the photos show fakery.


POC 4 - Randi's Dishonesty (Page 41)
Covering Randi's paper for Skeptical Inquirer the following spring (regarding the Resch TK case) Roll point-blank accuses Randi of misrepresenting key events - calling Randi "as master of sleight of words as well as of hand."

Randi, Roll claims, misrepresented his (that is, Roll's) location, words and actions - taking special offense at a crack Randi made about his eyeglasses!

Now, I wasn't there; Randi was. Therefore these matters of misrepresentation (if that's what it is) should be addressed by Randi himself.

Impossible to know, without tape recordings. If any, it could be a simple memory slip.

POC 5 - Photo Phun (Page 42)
Randi is also taken to ask for his treatment of the now-famous Flying Phone picture (reproduced on page 40).

By the author's admission, there were two people present for this TK display; reporter Mike Harden and Fred Shannon. Fred, the one with the camera, wasn't looking.

Go back and read that again. Fred Shannon "had discovered that the only way to catch the telephone in flight was to take his camera down and look away; he would then snap a picture whenever he caught a glimpse of movement."

So the only person there with the means to objectively document this event was deliberately NOT doing so - and yet Roll has a problem with Randi's conduct.

True, this is ridiculous. Roll clearly has no idea how to conduct an experiment - or he has, but...


POC 6 - Dismissal of Witnesses (Page 42)
The article complains that Randi "dismissed" the accounts of PK happenings given by local electrician (and "family friend...." hmmm) Bruce Claggett.

Not having read Randi's SI report, I don't know how dismissive it was towards Claggett. However, none of this changes the fact that Claggett is yet another person claiming to have seen something which, if true, would rock the sciences of physics and neurology to their foundations.

These PK witness testimonies have interesting things in common. Whether Roll, Harden or Claggett, each person was alone (or the only one looking), each event was irreproducible and there is no objective record for any of them. Even the most famous photo, the Flying Phone, is useless since the camera operator only snapped the picture after seeing it in flight from the corner of his eye.

True. These anecdotes are worthless - we can't know what really happened, and we only have the word of those who want it to be true.

POC 7 - Caught Red-Handed By Randi (Page 42)
'Amazing'ly, Randi is even taken to task for catching Tina in a clumsy trick involving pulling over a lamp on the day reporters were at the house. Roll admits it was a trick, but insists that the other events - you know, the ones he and others "witnessed" - were of a whole different type.

Right, the old "But He Doesn't Cheat All The Time!" excuse. This is so transparent that it is lame-o.

Did I say "lame-o"? Yes, I did!

POC 8 - Circumstances & Conclusion (Page 42)
Roll writes:
"Above all, Randi failed to realize that the occurrences took place under informal circumstances in a private home, not in a laboratory."

I hardly think someone as accustomed to these investigations as Randi is would "fail to realize" such a thing. In fact, I'd bet that's exactly why he and two scientists with him were so insistent that he be allowed to check out Resch's home.

As for "informal circumstances," is that some kind of code for total lack of test protocols or controls?

So was Randi supposed to be LESS skeptical in such an environment...?

True. If anything, this is testament to Randi's level of seriousness.

Roll writes:
"He went on to claim that the occurrences around Tina, if genuine, would amount to 'a repeal of the basic laws of physics.'"

Um... yes, it would.

True. Why is this a POC?

Roll writes:
"Physics does not say that objects cannot be affected without tangible contact. The Moon revolves around the Earth and magnets attract pieces of iron without visible contact."

I will say only this: notice how Roll has to switch TANGIBLE for VISIBLE, since even his own two examples don't support his case.

Yes, bait-and-switch. Gravity and magnetism are physical phenomena that can be measured objectively.

Roll concludes:
"Recurrent spontaneous psychokenesis requires an extension of the laws of physics, not their repeal as Randi imagines."

I don't think Randi is the one imagining things here.

True.

Oh, well.
 
Ipecac said:
I did a little Googling myself and it seems like despite this being the "most documented poltergeist case of the 20th century", there is only one photo - a phone flying across the room, in easy reach of Tina Resch.

Yeah, I remember reading an older Skeptical Inquirer where this case was completely debunked. One can basically pull the cord and the telephone will go flying.
 
Thanks for the summary BrainFromArous.

In return, here's Randi's article on the events:

Columbus poltergeist - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Reprinted with permission from the JREF's Swift newsletter, volume 3 no 1 & 2 (double issue) and no 3. Contact the foundation for copies.
 
CFLarsen said:
False, and false.

Randi is not affiliated with CSICOP. JREF was created because Randi had to leave CSICOP because of possible financial ruin for CSICOP from Geller's frivolous lawsuits.

The original article Randi wrote was done in 1984. Randi was with CSICOP at that point.
 

Back
Top Bottom