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"Anti-Pangea" Theory?

Elektrix

Critical Thinker
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
295
This is related to my other posting just now....... apparently Neal Adams has this "anti-pangea" theory, and basically says a lot of what the scientific community says is wrong about all this.

I found this site which seems to explain what his ideas are:

http://www.nealadams.com/EarthProject/antipangea.html

EDIT: He also seems to have a general "challenge" up at http://www.nealadams.com/challenge.html in which he says there is no subduction, etc.

Just curious if anyone can explain to me the problems with this.

-Elektrix
 
nbenami said:
Oh boy. Another loon with a tenuous grasp on reality.

Heh, I know it's crazy. What I'm hoping to get are some more details about exactly what problems there are with his ideas before I try and get into a debate with the person who is telling me about them.

-Elektrix
 
I can't speak to the paleontology, but a few things caught my attention.

As someone pointed out already, gravity is not an "electromagnetic attraction".

The rest of the argument doesn't sound as good if you remove all the "argument to personal incredulity".

The nearly infallible indicator of junk is the obligatory swipe at the mythological entity of the "scientific establishment":

Problem is, acceptance of such a radical theory would open a Pandora's box of controversy and, hell, a new theory of everything else. That would really shake things up. Too scary for most serious scientists.

I guess these would be the same scientists that have spent the last few centuries embracing radical theories and overthrowing old misconceptions.
 
I can speak to the "tarascosaurus" argument.

First, and almost a side issue, he's basing his whole "tarascosaurus" argument on the particular manner in which some Hollywood animators have chosen to animate their dinosaur. Just because they showed it running at 50 mph doesn't mean the scientists who said it could only run 10 mph are wrong.

Second, this is wrong:
The elephant also has a massive trunk that helps to counterbalance the elephant's head as he turns it side to side.
The average elephant skull, according to the Web, is about 45 kg. It's full of air spaces and sinuses to make it lighter, to enable the elephant's cervical vertebrae to carry both a full-size skull and the trunk, and the tusks.

About elephant skeletons. The cervical vertebrae hold the head up basically through brute force; no "counterbalance" comes into play.

I found a cite that gives 400 lbs. as the approximate weight of an elephant's trunk.

A thing cannot counterbalance something that it outweighs. A 400 lb. thing does not counterbalance a 165 lb. thing. Visualize a see-saw: a 400 lb. person on one end, and a 165 lb. thing on the other end. Yes? No.

Also, a thing cannot counterbalance something if there's no fulcrum. A kangaroo's tail is designed so as to flex and hinge, it has vertebrae in it to enable it to do that, it connects at the base of the kangaroo's spine so as to form a fulcrum. A cheetah's tail does this, too.

An elephant's trunk is basically just muscles and skin stuck on the front of its face. There's no fulcrum.
 
I actually thought it was a spoof at first: "Dinosaur Planet" exhibits conclusive proof against Pangea Theory."

His proof for his theory is a Discovery Channel mini-series? Ohh-kayyyy...

:D
 
Thanks all, I really appreciate it. I've summarized the various points brought up here and asked him about it.

-Elektrix
 
Btw, aside from the "anti-pangea" stuff, it seems like a large part of his ideas have to do with the idea that the earth is growing (and this is supposed to be the radical idea that scientists are supposed to be too afraid to consider, or something like that).

Are there any thoughts or refutations to that?

-Zadillo
 
After looking at his website it became plain why his name was so familiar. Neal Adams is one of the foremost Batman comic book artists of all time. Which just about covers his scientific credentials. :D
 
Ausmerican said:
After looking at his website it became plain why his name was so familiar. Neal Adams is one of the foremost Batman comic book artists of all time. Which just about covers his scientific credentials. :D

Yeah, same guy. For some reason it seems like he went off the deep end or something though.

-Zadillo
 
Elektrix said:
Btw, aside from the "anti-pangea" stuff, it seems like a large part of his ideas have to do with the idea that the earth is growing (and this is supposed to be the radical idea that scientists are supposed to be too afraid to consider, or something like that).

Are there any thoughts or refutations to that?

-Zadillo

If it was growing, wouldn't that have implications for gravity? Also, where is the new material supposed to be coming from?
 
Exactly.

Are there any thoughts or refutations to that?
Um, yeah. A few. :D

First of all, he's not the first person to claim that the Earth is getting bigger, so it's not an original idea or obsession with him. It's called the Expanding Earth Theory--typical website.

The trouble with them is that they claim that plate tectonics/continental drift cannot suggest a realistic, testable physical mechanism whereby the plates collide and drift (they pooh-pooh the whole "floating around on magma" thing)--yet neither are they able to suggest a physical mechanism that would cause an entire planet to swell up over the course of eons like an expanding loaf of bread.

What they're doing, of course, is that they're looking at the undisputable evidence of massive geological building (mountain chains, rift valleys, the Mid-Atlantic ridge, the way it looks like South America and Africa fit together, etc.), and jumping from that observation to the conclusion that the only thing that could have caused those was some sort of swelling-up of the Earth, skipping along the way those steps that we know as "evidence".

They're not reasoning from scientific data--they're looking at maps and diagrams the way that basically a child does, and exclaiming, "But, how could something like that happen?"


Perfect example, from Neal Adam's page:
Thing is, South America and Africa don’t fit together. If you try to put them together and match the north of South America and the overhang of Africa then as you go down on the two triangular bottoms there is a 25 degree angle missing. A pie wedge of material. You can’t account for it, no matter how you try. Unless you say; the pieces were verrry flexible.

Well they weren’t! Flexible! At all! They’re granite and basalt. They’d break!

There is one way they could fit together, but you geologists would have to seek out your answers in geometry, not geology.

If the Earth were 30 percent smaller all the geometry would change. The continents would wrap tighter around a smaller ball and the tails of South America and Africa would fit perfectly
This is exactly how a kid looks at a map and says, "Hey, where's the missing piece"? He doesn't understand that a map of continents, always in a state of flux whether it's the Plate Tectonics theory or the Expanding Earth theory, isn't the same thing as a cardboard jigsaw puzzle.

A kid also thinks that when scientists say, "The granite and basalt of a continental shelf are flexible, so they subduct", that means "flexible" as in rubber or elastic. He thinks the scientists are stupid for saying that stone can be flexible like rubber. Ha ha! He knows better.

Another specific refutation:

From the geocities page:
There is growing evidence that surface gravity must have been less in the recent past or the dinosaur's could not have supported their own weight, let alone been able to move about quickly without smashing their bones to pieces if they attempted it. Paradoxically, the available evidence indicates that these were agile active animals, as shown in dinosaur stampede tracks, etc. When they wanted to sprint to get away from a predator they clearly could, but if you calculate their body weight and analyse their skeletal structure, they would have shattered their leg bones if they did so. The only explanation that seems to work is that Earth's gravity must have been less in the past but is increasing as mass is added to the mantle.
Ask your friend, "Where is this mass coming from?" That's the central question that the Expanding Earth theory is never able to answer. Mass cannot be created from scratch. A rock cannot increase its mass by itself, from within. Planet Earth is basically a big rock. It cannot create mass for itself. Even if magma adds itself to the mantle and makes the mantle bigger, that mass of magma would have had to come from somewhere.

The usual explanation that the Expanding Earthers offer for this is to invoke "unknown physical processes deep within the Earth's core" that, when they are fully understood, will turn today's physics topsy-turvy and incidentally give the lie to all those Scientists who told us the Earth couldn't expand...Ha ha! We know better.

Another, not as common, explanation is to invoke an ongoing Big Bang-like "matter creation" event deep within Earth's core. This argument leaves most physicists stupefied in amazement, and I've never run across any kind of adequate refutation for it, other than, "What, are you nuts...?"


********************

The "dinosaurs would have smashed their bones if they tried to run in current Earth gravity!" argument is just silly, and betrays a lack of paying attention.

The dinosaurs that are now presumed to have been able to run fast are NOT the lumbering dinosaurs with the big heavy bones. Give this page to your friend to read. The big heavy-boned dinosaurs have never been presumed to be able to do anything other than lumber along. It's the theropods like T.Rex that have now been--tentatively--promoted to "fast runners". And hind-leg runners like T.Rex are so obviously built physically different from four-leg plodders like Triceratops that only someone who wasn't paying attention--someone who only heard, "Dinosaurs could run fast after all" on the news and who doesn't understand that there are different kinds of dinosaurs--would jump from that to, "Earth's gravity must have been different to allow Triceratops to run fast". Yes, if Triceratops had been able to run fast, that would indeed mean that Earth's gravity must have been different--but nobody's saying that Triceratops could run fast.

Earth's gravity couldn't have been different because, again, mass cannot be added to a planet (unless you're talking about planetary collisions). Gravity is directly tied to the mass of the body. The smaller the body, the lower its gravity. If Earth's gravity had been smaller, and it's more now--then where did the mass come from, that would have increased the gravity? Mass cannot be generated from nothing.
 
Well, Earth could augment its volume while keeping its mass by creating holes in its structure. It would be less dense.
But in this case, surface gravity would decrease, instead of increasing. Poor dinosaurs! Carrying all that bulk in a stronger gravitational field.
 
Wow, thank you.....:) I know it's probably frustrating to spend any time on this kind of crackpot stuff, but I really appreciate your help with this.

-Elektrix
 
Thank you, Electrix. You made my day.

I particularly like The Worst Argument From Analogy Ever.
Let’s try this, many subduction zones are near or at the coastline of continents or islands. I call this the swimming dog and hippo example. The hippo is the continent, the dog the undersea plate. How does the swimming dog swim under the hippo. A portion of the hippo lies above the water as the continent lies above the magma. The dog or undersea plate can’t smoothly slide under the continental plate, anymore than a dog can swim easily under a hippo, it must subduct backward. There’s no neatly slanted under plate under the continent. It’s a big fat blunk like the hippo or an iceberg.
Contenental drift is impossible... because a dog can't easily swim under a hippo. Well, I'm convinced.

It might be worth measuring to this chap that continental drift can now be measured directly, and that the same measurements would also reveal if the Earth was expanding. (Guess what --- it isn't.)
 
No, no, it's my pleasure, really. :D I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy this sort of thing. And actually, this is one of the easier debunkings, because they're basing it supposedly on "science" and "logic", so it's fairly easy to come right back at 'em with "more science" and "better logic".

The hardest ones are the ones where it really boils down to a matter of "faith", like aliens and conspiracy theories and ghosts and magnetic shoes and suchlike. You can't prove to them that a ghost doesn't exist--all you can do is demand proof that it DOES exist.
 

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