Anthropogenic GW and New Orleans

a_unique_person

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A category 5 storm headed straight for a low lying coastal city. That seems to be a scenario right out of the predictions of the scientists investigating the possible effects of AGW.

Category 5 storms are not new, but the number of named storms so early in the hurricane season is.
 
a_unique_person said:
A category 5 storm headed straight for a low lying coastal city. That seems to be a scenario right out of the predictions of the scientists investigating the possible effects of AGW.

Category 5 storms are not new, but the number of named storms so early in the hurricane season is.

New Orleans isn't simply a low lying coastal city, it's already below sea level. Anthropogenic global warming isn't responsible for that, but THAT is why the city is up a creek, so to speak. It wouldn't even require a category 5 to possibly sink the city with a direct hit, this has been a problem just waiting to happen anyways.

And I'm sorry, but nobody has really tied global warming to increased hurricane activity. You're grasping for straws here. Regardless of whether or not global warming is caused by man, regardless of how intense it will be or what we should do about it, blaming THIS particular problem on AGW is like blaming it for your hair loss.
 
The Big Easy's problems today have more to do w/ the damming of the Mississippi River than AGW. There is far less silt exiting the river than is necessary to maintain (let alone build) the marshes that have protected the city for hundreds of years. The marshes are shrinking, and as they shrink the city becomes more vulnerable.
 
Read

this

So that you have the foggiest clue about hurricane prediction before you spout off about this being evidence of AGW.
 
Disastrous hurricanes hitting low-lying costal cities is not a new occurence--just fairly rare. Google Gavelston and Hurricane for an example of what can happen.

Fortunately weather prediction is much better these days. See this site to track the events occuring.

Good luck to any posters in the Big Easy. Hope the city is still there come Monday.
 
corplinx said:
Read

this

So that you have the foggiest clue about hurricane prediction before you spout off about this being evidence of AGW.

figure3.gif


Yep, looks like the warming is something beyond normal El Nino/La Nina cycles. I'm making a call, scientists will be working on a formal one right now, is my guess.
 
A couple of the local news stations have teamed up and are broadcasting through the storm. Presumably from a high building.

Webcast here:
http://www.wdsu.com/video/4907831/detail.html

Amazing storm, hope they will be ok.










"this storm is NOT going to blow the Superdome away" - on-air live caller working at a relief center...

This is not exactly the Club Med...
 
AUP with unsubstantiated claims again.

This storm issue is done and dusted.

Even according to the IPCC there is no evidence that the incidence or severity of tropical storms in the south Atlantic has increased over time - so it is absolutely absurd to suggest some sort of cause.

Show your evidence AUP or go away.
 
Drooper said:
AUP with unsubstantiated claims again.

This storm issue is done and dusted.

Even according to the IPCC there is no evidence that the incidence or severity of tropical storms in the south Atlantic has increased over time - so it is absolutely absurd to suggest some sort of cause.

Show your evidence AUP or go away.

I clearly labelled as my opinion. Sorry if that offends you. Perhaps there are other places you can post that are more agreeable.

The storm issue is not in any way 'done and dusted'. The scientists you are so quick to attack are doing what they always do, looking for proof. The suspicion, as a climatologist on the news said tonight, is that AGW is having an impact. This is due to the very high surface temperatures in the gulf, fuelling what is in effect a heat engine.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/page.cfm?pageID=1529
 
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/reference/bibliography/2004/tk0401.pdf

[/quote]

Previous studies have found that idealized hurricanes, simulated under warmer, high-CO2 conditions, are more
intense and have higher precipitation rates than under present-day conditions. The present study explores the
sensitivity of this result to the choice of climate model used to define the CO2 -warmed environment and to the
choice of convective parameterization used in the nested regional model that simulates the hurricanes. Approx-imately
1300 five-day idealized simulations are performed using a higher-resolution version of the GFDL hur-ricane
prediction system (grid spacing as fine as 9 km, with 42 levels). All storms were embedded in a uniform
5 m s 21 easterly background flow. The large-scale thermodynamic boundary conditions for the experiments—
atmospheric temperature and moisture profiles and SSTs—are derived from nine different Coupled Model In-tercomparison
Project (CMIP21) climate models. The CO2 -induced SST changes from the global climate models,
based on 80-yr linear trends from 11% yr 21 CO2 increase experiments, range from about 10.88 to 12.48C in
the three tropical storm basins studied. Four different moist convection parameterizations are tested in the
hurricane model, including the use of no convective parameterization in the highest resolution inner grid. Nearly
all combinations of climate model boundary conditions and hurricane model convection schemes show a CO2 -induced
increase in both storm intensity and near-storm precipitation rates. The aggregate results, averaged
across all experiments, indicate a 14% increase in central pressure fall, a 6% increase in maximum surface wind
speed, and an 18% increase in average precipitation rate within 100 km of the storm center. The fractional
change in precipitation is more sensitive to the choice of convective parameterization than is the fractional
change of intensity. Current hurricane potential intensity theories, applied to the climate model environments,
yield an average increase of intensity (pressure fall) of 8% (Emanuel) to 16% (Holland) for the high-CO2
environments. Convective available potential energy (CAPE) is 21% higher on average in the high-CO2 envi-ronments.
One implication of the results is that if the frequency of tropical cyclones remains the same over the
coming century, a greenhouse gas–induced warming may lead to a gradually increasing risk in the occurrence
of highly destructive category-5 storms.

[/quote]
 
a_unique_person said:

Yep, looks like the warming is something beyond normal El Nino/La Nina cycles. I'm making a call, scientists will be working on a formal one right now, is my guess.

And what experties do you possess to be making a call based on 50 years of data?
 
SPOT THE IDIOTS...

"I'm not doing too good right now," Chris Robinson said via cellphone from his home east of the city's downtown. "The water's rising pretty fast. I got a hammer and an ax and a crowbar, but I'm holding off on breaking through the roof until the last minute. Tell someone to come get me please. I want to live."

On the south shore of Lake Ponchartrain, entire neighborhoods of one- story, shotgun-style homes were flooded up to the rooflines. The Interstate 10 off-ramps nearby looked like boat ramps amid the whitecapped waves. Garbage cans and tires bobbed in the water.

Two people were stranded on the roof as murky water lapped at the gutters.

"Get us a boat!" a man in a black slicker shouted over the howling winds.

Across the street, a woman leaned from the second-story window of a brick home and shouted for assistance.

"There are three kids in here," the woman said. "Can you help us?"
Okay, folks, where were you when the mayor and the governor and the police were all yelling at you to get out of town?
 
a_unique_person said:
I'm making a call, scientists will be working on a formal one right now, is my guess.

I didn't mean to pick a bone with you per se. I only meant to inform about hurricane prediction. I think there are 8 predictors for early season hurricanes. Those predictors themselves could be influenced by a warming trend be it natural or man-influenced. I found a fascinating report detailing how they predicted the hurricane season this year but I cannot find it at the moment. Its truly impressive however.
 
While the evidence isn't conclusive, scientists are giving the hypothesis serious consideration.

From http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1099102,00.html

One especially sobering study from the Massachussetts Institute of Technology found that hurricane wind speeds have increased about 50% in the past 50 years. And since warm oceans are such a critical ingredient in hurricane formation, anything that gets the water warming more could get the storms growing worse. Global warming, in theory at least, would be more than sufficient to do that.
 
Beth said:
And since warm oceans are such a critical ingredient in hurricane formation, anything that gets the water warming more could get the storms growing worse. Global warming, in theory at least, would be more than sufficient to do that.

Except it's not that simple. Hurricanes aren't simply the result of warm water, they're the result of heat TRANSFER from warm water to cold air. It's simple thermodynamics: gradients are what drive weather, NOT absolute temperature. If you ONLY warm the water, then yes, you'd expect hurricanes to get more intense. But of course, that's not what would (or will) happen with global warming. The atmosphere will also warm up, and if the air warms more than the water does, then global warming could actually DECREASE hurricane intensity. Which will it be? Well, that's a little hard to say for sure, but what you CAN'T do is simply pug in projections for water warming alone and expect to get the right answer. There's a vast gulf between "could" and "will".
 
Re: SPOT THE IDIOTS...

BPSCG said:
Okay, folks, where were you when the mayor and the governor and the police were all yelling at you to get out of town?

It's one thing to privately shake your head at the stupidity of people, it's another to publically mock them, when they are in life threatening situations.
 
Ziggurat said:
Except it's not that simple. Hurricanes aren't simply the result of warm water, they're the result of heat TRANSFER from warm water to cold air. It's simple thermodynamics: gradients are what drive weather, NOT absolute temperature. If you ONLY warm the water, then yes, you'd expect hurricanes to get more intense. But of course, that's not what would (or will) happen with global warming. The atmosphere will also warm up, and if the air warms more than the water does, then global warming could actually DECREASE hurricane intensity. Which will it be? Well, that's a little hard to say for sure, but what you CAN'T do is simply pug in projections for water warming alone and expect to get the right answer. There's a vast gulf between "could" and "will".

If you read the link I provide that the quote comes from, it's clear that the MIT scientists working on this are aware of the various factors (such as the ones you point out above) and how they contribute to hurricane development.

My point is not that the hypothesis that global warming affects the amount and intensity of hurricanes is correct, but that it is something that is being investigated, not dismissed out of hand, by legimate scientists who study hurricanes. It is not, as one poster claimed, similar to blaming baldness on gw.

Beth
 
Re: Re: SPOT THE IDIOTS...

IllegalArgument said:
It's one thing to privately shake your head at the stupidity of people, it's another to publically mock them, when they are in life threatening situations.
Uh-huh.

Let's have another look at those quotes:
"I'm not doing too good right now," Chris Robinson said via cellphone from his home east of the city's downtown. "The water's rising pretty fast. I got a hammer and an ax and a crowbar, but I'm holding off on breaking through the roof until the last minute. Tell someone to come get me please. I want to live."

(...snip...)

"Get us a boat!" a man in a black slicker shouted over the howling winds.

(...snip...)

"There are three kids in here," the woman said. "Can you help us?"
All emphases mine. All translate the same way: "I might die because because I wilfully, stupidly defied a mandatory evacuation order. Now I want you to risk your life to save me."
 
Re: Re: Re: SPOT THE IDIOTS...

BPSCG said:
Uh-huh.

Let's have another look at those quotes:All emphases mine. All translate the same way: "I might die because because I wilfully, stupidly defied a mandatory evacuation order. Now I want you to risk your life to save me."

Those people are paniced. Yes it's probably thier fault, but you have no idea why they ignored the order. Maybe they are perfectly healthy idiots, maybe they are old disabled people, with no family, friends or services to look after them.

I'm not asking you to show sympathy for them, but to mock them without knowing all the details. Shrug, just seems callous.
 

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