Another Shooting, Close to Home

Minadin

Master Poster
Minadin
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Tonight, some nut-ball psycho busted into the Kirkwood City Hall Planning and Zoning meeting and shot the place up.

Seven people were shot, at least 2 of whom I knew personally, because I go to meetings there for projects and have to work with the city officials. Luckily I was not there tonight, our current project there passed through planning and zoning about 2 months ago. But it's still scary, I was pretty freaked out when my dad called to make sure I was OK, and I still am, because I could have been there.

The news places are reporting that 5 of the 7 are dead (not including the shooter, who was gunned down just outside by the police). Of that, 2 of the dead were police officers. One of the survivors was the Mayor - he's currently in critical condition and in surgery. So that means that my two acquaintances are among the 1 injured and 3 dead who remain, if the reports are accurate.

It's completely crazy.

It really makes you think about how wonderful and fleeting life is.
I never wish any violence or harm on anyone at all, not even the mean and violent people who cause it to others. I wish more people could be of the mindset that their issues, their problems, their conflicts, no matter unfair or hopeless or wrong their situation may seem, can be solved without resorting to violence or inflicting harm upon others. It doesn't solve a god damned thing.

I hope you all have a good weekend, take care, be safe, be content.

Link to story:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784/
 
Yep, close to home for me too.

It would have never happened if he hadn't had access to guns.

:duck:

Off you go!

popc1%5B1%5D.gif
 
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One of the folks I was worried about was reportedly shot in the head, I just heard on KMOV TV here in St. Louis. The other survivor was said to be shot in the hand only, so I fear he is dead. I'm at a loss for words right now. It's going to be a weird time at the office for a while. I think everyone there has worked with at least one of the victims, and my boss probably knew all of them personally.
 
What the hell happened to security? Every town hall meeting I've ever been to has had at least 2-3 armed guards in the room.
 
He shot them first. But this is a pretty quiet town and there aren't usually officers there when I go, or maybe one only. It's right across a very small parking lot from the Police Station.

There aren't any metal detectors or anything, it's open to the public. You don't have to have an appointment or be on the agenda or anything to attend. You just walk in, go up some stairs, and right into the council chambers. The last time I went, in November, I was the first person in the room when I showed up for the meeting and there wasn't anyone downstairs.

I read tonight that the only reason there was an officer inside tonight was because the shooter was known to be disruptive and had needed to be escorted out in the past. Apparently the city knew that he would be back tonight and had asked the police to be there. He just lost a federal court case earlier today against the city. But, he hadn't been violent in the past so they were probably just there to keep him from being overly disruptive or interrupting their scheduled business.

The officer who was shot outside was the first victim and apparently just getting off duty and was headed across the parking lot to get some pizza when he was murdered.
 
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I still find it bizarre. I had to go take care of a traffic ticket in a rural Missouri town, population <1000 and there were 3 armed officers there. Back in Massachusetts when I went with my parents to a town hall meeting (something about the schools) there were armed officers of the court everywhere.
 
But, this was a planning and zoning meeting. Not a legal court or "town hall". There aren't usually all that many people there - apparently it was around 30 total tonight. And, there was an armed officer present, and dozens more across the street.

In the future I suppose they will have more officers inside, but it's pretty shocking and unexpected. I doubt that anything else like this will occur there anytime soon.
 
Minadin said:
Tonight, some nut-ball psycho busted into the Kirkwood City Hall Planning and Zoning meeting and shot the place up.

Seven people were shot, at least 2 of whom I knew personally, because I go to meetings there for projects and have to work with the city officials. Luckily I was not there tonight, our current project there passed through planning and zoning about 2 months ago. But it's still scary, I was pretty freaked out when my dad called to make sure I was OK, and I still am, because I could have been there.

The news places are reporting that 5 of the 7 are dead (not including the shooter, who was gunned down just outside by the police). Of that, 2 of the dead were police officers. One of the survivors was the Mayor - he's currently in critical condition and in surgery. So that means that my two acquaintances are among the 1 injured and 3 dead who remain, if the reports are accurate.

It's completely crazy.

It really makes you think about how wonderful and fleeting life is.
I never wish any violence or harm on anyone at all, not even the mean and violent people who cause it to others. I wish more people could be of the mindset that their issues, their problems, their conflicts, no matter unfair or hopeless or wrong their situation may seem, can be solved without resorting to violence or inflicting harm upon others. It doesn't solve a god damned thing.

I hope you all have a good weekend, take care, be safe, be content.

Link to story:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784/
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I'm really sorry you have to go through this. Because of idiots who want to prove they're "gangsta" and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've lost several of those precious few that I truly count as friend. All of these people made choices to be in their respective situations though, so I can't imagine what it's like when they fall to insanity. Again my condolences.
 
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quixotecoyote said:
What the hell happened to security? Every town hall meeting I've ever been to has had at least 2-3 armed guards in the room.
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quixotecoyote said:
I still find it bizarre. I had to go take care of a traffic ticket in a rural Missouri town, population <1000 and there were 3 armed officers there. Back in Massachusetts when I went with my parents to a town hall meeting (something about the schools) there were armed officers of the court everywhere.
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That is some scary world you live in!

Rolfe.
 
It doesn't matter how often it happens or in what circumstances, the usual suspects will post away about how this has nothing at all to do with easy access to firearms.
 
quixotecoyote said:
I had to go take care of a traffic ticket in a rural Missouri town, population <1000 and there were 3 armed officers there.
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I'm still boggling about this. Less than 1000 population? We call that a village, here, and not a very big one at that. This prompted me to consider the size of the settlement I live in. Census data for 2001 record 4,054 for the village "and district", which actually includes a number of smaller villages and hamlets. Another document examining the role of rural post offices (case 2.1 in that document) records 1,459 for the vllage itself and 3,768 for "and district", apparently based on the same figures.

So even my village is bigger than your town. There is a police station there (the only one in the "and district" area), it's about 300 yards from my house, but I seldom see any policemen about - in fact, I only recall seeing a police car a couple of times, apparently returing to base. Whether they have access to firearms I know not. (I suspect not, in fact.) I do know that these guys would not be carrying guns. And so far as "armed officers" guarding civic proceedings - my God, the very idea!!

The only actual civic proceeding I recall participating in in the village is voting in the election last year. Not a sniff of a cop or a guard anywhere. I've acted as a party representative at rural polling stations in other elections, and never seen a cop.

The larger village where I used to live (population about 10,000) was pretty similar. There was only an occasionally-manned police office, and you'd occasionally see cops about (unarmed of course). None of the civic ameneties was guarded in any way, by police or security guards or anyone, and there were certainly no guns involved.

The only places (apart from airports) where I've ever seen visible security are law courts, and parliament. And that's really confined to an airport-style screen as you go in. I imagine there are officers available on call if need be, but once you're in these places certainly don't have even unarmed officers on public display, never mind armed.

Your society seems to me to be a very scary place to live.

Rolfe.
 
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lionking said:
It doesn't matter how often it happens or in what circumstances, the usual suspects will post away about how this has nothing at all to do with easy access to firearms.
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It is the rare bird who says it has nothing at all to do with easy access to firearms. The dispute--once we get past a discussion of statistics and actual likelihood of encountering such a situation--revolves around three things:

1. The degree to which easy access contributes (or in other words: the expected impact of removing easy access

2. The practicality of actually removing easy access separate from simply passing legal restrictions

3. The relative merit of perceived/actual liberty versus perceived/actual risk. This is the part where the 2nd Amendment gets quoted, used, and misused by both sides.
 
Garrette said:
3. The relative merit of perceived/actual liberty versus perceived/actual risk. This is the part where the 2nd Amendment gets quoted, used, and misused by both sides.
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It seems that the price of that liberty is "armed guards at town hall meetings", which is not heard of in the UK as far as I know.

In think armed guards would be viewed as a very oppressive policy here that severely discomfited people and was a curtailment of civil liberty that effectively placed the public under suspicion of intent to commit lethal acts. I can't think why it would be welcomed unless people really believed they needed such protection, and that it was the lesser of two assaults on their liberty (the other assault being a potential threat of murder etc).

So do you think that the price of this oppression/implied suspicion (you may of course not see it as oppression at all) for easy gun access is a good one? (Note I am completely neglecting the small risk of being shot up in public as weighing in on the question here)
 
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Close to home for me too.

I have some friends with parents in Kirkwood. One of them is a city attorney. It took me a moment to remember that he is not an attorney in the township he lives in, so he probably wasn't there. (This morning they released some names which verified that.)

As Minadin said, this was a zoning and planning meeting. My wife, the nearly-fully-licensed architect, attends those kinds of meetings all the time and sometimes at Kirkwood. I knew she wasn't last night, but she could have been if the butterfly had flapped its wings differently.

and people say that St. Louis city is dangerous.
 
My girlfriend called me last night and she told me she heard this. I'm near the same area but I go to bed early. Pretty freaky. It's odd though because I don't feel any less safe.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Yep, close to home for me too.

It would have never happened if he hadn't had access to guns.

:duck:

Off you go!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/popc1%5B1%5D.gif[/qimg]
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Perhaps if the victims had had guns they could have protected themselves. I own guns myself and this wouldn't have happened to the crowd I hang with.
 
quixotecoyote said:
I had to go take care of a traffic ticket in a rural Missouri town, population <1000 and there were 3 armed officers there.
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Do you mind if I ask where this was? The rural Missouri town i grew up in, population ~2,500, has 3 cops total. If anything big happens, they have to call the county troopers. I can't imagine the entire local police department being required at something like traffic court.

To be fair, I don't actually know if this is the case. My mom is still on the city council. I could ask her what the protocol is.
 
Being in law enforcement here, the death of two police officers in an incident like this is of special concern.
We don't have the details of the incident yet, reporting has been all over the place. Apparently, the individual involved is a local gadfly who has a long history of dispute with the city authorities. He had just lost a lawsuit where he claimed that his rights were being violated as he'd been ejected from previous meetings.
According to initial reports, he surprised one police officer outside of the building, shooting him in the back. He then burst into the meeting room, shooting the lone police officer assigned to the meeting first before directing his fire at the council members.
A city attorney escaped harm by throwing chairs at the gunman before fleeing. (illustrating the wisdom of taking direct action...)
Arriving officers apparently killed the man.
Accounts vary, but he may have been armed with two pistols.

This sort of thing is not unprecedented here. Some years back, an individual in a divorce hearing smuggled two pistols into the courtroom (there being no screening at the time).
He shot his estranged wife, her attorney, the judge, and then ran amok in the courts building amid general panic until officers who were present in the building shot him.

Of course, questions will be asked. Why was this individual, a known problem, not on security watch lists? Why was the police officer assigned to the meeting inside the hall?
(wouldn't some sort of access control be a better idea?)
 
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