Aaaah, you are talking about those people. And you are pointing out that they are NOT making blanket statements but instead criticizing claims. Then we must be reading different fora because I didn't bring claims into the discussion.
When I say "claims", I mean the sorts of things you made specific reference to and which were the subject of the OP - vitamin C supplementation in exercise.
Does the phrase "another nail in the coffin for vitamin supplements" sound like "criticizing claims" or like "blanket statement" to you ?
Does it matter? The OP made specific reference to a specific claim and them made reference to evidence-based claims.
You don't see anyone supporting non-evidence-based claims ? How about NOT supporting evidence-based claims, like you just did here:
Can you give an example of an evidence-based claim that you don't think I supported?
Wrong. Protein supplements for example (a very big chunk of the "multi-billion dollar industry") are neither "useless" nor "drugs".
This is the issue. What the supplement industry has managed to do is to conflate 'food' and 'drugs'. Because there isn't really anything supplemental or non-evidence-based about meeting nutritional and metabolic requirements. Prior to the implementation of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, drugs weren't treated as food. But creating a new category of 'supplements' allowed drugs to bypass normal safety and efficacy standards by relabeling themselves as food. But why bring up protein supplements? Why would it occur to you to call something that supplies essential nutrients "supplemental" in the first place, unless you are making claims that go beyond ordinary nutrition? Does it occur to us to call orange juice a 'supplement'?
Is there lack of evidence about the need for protein supplementation in very well described cases ? What about fish oil ? Is it useful when it's a drug for treating high triglycerides but when it is produced by a supplement company it's useless ? Do we have lack of evidence here ? What about creatine ? Is it useful or useless to athletes, even recreational ones ? Are you aware of relevant evidence or is it useless as well ? Are there special groups of people that need increased doses of certain minerals and/or vitamins that supplements can very well provide ? I can continue citing examples all day long as long as you are ready to show me how they are useless.
Actually, I'm more curious as to why you think they deserve a special category? Either you are talking about nutritional and metabolic needs, which make them food, or you are talking about altering the structure or function of the body, which makes them drugs.
Let's take fish oil as an example. If you are making structure/function claims, isn't it a drug? Niacin, when used in the treatment of high cholesterol, is considered a drug and treated as such. When it is provided as part of a balanced diet, it comes in/from food. When a pill form is used to correct a deficiency, it's part of normal medicine, not SCAM.
What about protein supplements - are you making essential nutrient claims or structure/function claims when you talk about protein supplements? If you are making structure/function claims, then how are they not a drug? If you are making essential nutrient claims, how is it not food? Give an example of the kind of claims you are making for protein supplements and of the evidence that you think supports those claims.
What do you call it when people keep repeating the mantra "supplements are useless" while closing their ears on the existing evidence to the opposite, happily singing "nah nah nah nah" ?
Because if there is evidence for structure/function claims, then they are simply drugs. The category 'supplements' exists only to hold those articles for which structure/function claims are made without the evidence we require of other drugs. The vitamin C that the OP was referring to wasn't being given in order to correct a deficiency, it was a structure/function claim about the effects of giving vitamin C in excess of nutritional requirements.
If the only thing that the supplement industry was about was supplying vitamins and minerals in pill form in order to correct deficiencies, or Ensure-like combinations of essential nutrients, I don't think there'd be anything for us to complain about. I certainly don't consider my use of iron pills in order to counteract my excessive losses Supplemental, Complementary and Alternative Medicine. It's the structure/function, drug-like claims that are made, without the safeguards against fraud and harm that lead to complaints.
I'm glad we agree on this one. AFAIK, in the US supplement producers are not allowed to make their claims on the package of the product. They have of course lots of other ways to spread their claims to the public. Pharmaceutical companies also have different channels to advertise. E.g. I happen to have in front of me an Eli-Lilly leaflet about Ceclor, with such nice descriptions and pictures that a supplement company would certainly be jealous of.
That's all they might be jealous of - they are in the enviable position of being able to say stuff that isn't true.
Linda
. I also take sporadically some antioxidants, usually cycling them (the opinions on antioxidant supplementation remain controversial but there is a boatload of different antioxidants and we are far from having examined all of their actions, so I follow a modest strategy). Sometimes I also supplement with fiber, when 1) I remember it and 2) I don't get enough with my diet.
