another "how I became Agnosic" thread

[zizzybaluba]

I haven't posted much, because I wanted to read the forum a bit and see some of the discussion before I started to participate (I guess that by definition make me a troll... sorry).

I know many others have posted similar topics, but I really wanted to see if anyone else had any similar experiences to my own.

For a long time, I considered myself a "non-practicing" catholic (never baptized or confirmed). My mother fell away from the church when she was unable to conceive naturally (fertility treatments are a big no-no to catholics), but my beloved Grandmother considered herself catholic until the day she died. At her funeral mass, I was struck by what the priest said: "those who have been baptized in Christ will see our sister again". I was heartbroken; not only had I lost my best friend, but here is some buthead telling me that I'm never going to get to see my Grammy in the afterlife just because my mother decided to not have me dipped in a tub of water when I was far too young to understand anything anyway! After a lot of contemplation (and crying) I decided that no god that created me in his own image could be that petty; and came to the conclusion that either the X-ian god is evil and selfish, god dosen't exist, or (my hopeful choice) god doesn't interfere in human events.

I like to think that God exists. I'll be the first to admit I have no proof of it. But I'm hopeful that I'll get to see all my loved ones again, along with my great grandfolks that I heard so many great stories about who passed before I was born. Its wishful thinking, I know, and I'm not going to pay homage to any deity every sunday (or any other day of the week) just because I hope something's going to happen to me after I die.

When people ask me about my religious beliefs, I say this: "I think God loves us and wants us to be happy. He wants us to be good to one and other, but he's not going to help us do so". That may be a load of bull, but it works for me.

Really what I'd like to know is, are there others who think there may be a higher power/creator, but reject the christian/judaic/muslim notion as such?

Thank you.

 

[wollery]

I haven't posted much, because I wanted to read the forum a bit and see some of the discussion before I started to participate (I guess that by definition make me a troll... sorry).

Nothing to add to the rest of your post, but you're behaviour makes you a lurker, not a troll.

BIG difference.

Oh and if you haven't posted in the "Welcome new posters! Introduce yourselves here!" thread then do so. Apart from anything it gets your post count towards the magic 50 mark.

 

[zizzybaluba]

Thanks,
I hadn't noticed the "Welcome new posters! Introduce yourselves here!" thread until now.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

In fact, a troll could be considered the opposite of a lurker. No one minds a lurker at all. Everyone hates a troll. A lurker doesn't post at all, while a troll posts 7 threads a second just to get people mad.

 

[CheeseDude]

Really what I'd like to know is, are there others who think there may be a higher power/creator, but reject the christian/judaic/muslim notion as such?

Welcome!!

My experience I think is quite common. I am an atheist. I became one in stages. First, I was fairly religious (Jewish). Then I realized that there were some things about religion that didn't quite make sense. At this point I started explaining them away or interpreting things to make sense for myself. Then I noticed some outright contradictions which troubled me. Next I wondered why there were so many religions all over the world and how they could possibly all be correct. This is when I arrived at the stage you seem to be at now. I figured that there is something out there watching over us. Someone who got this ball of life rolling initially but plays no active role in our day to day lives. This was a comforting thought. It is so much more comforting to let even that go. If this deity plays no active role, what is the difference whether it exists or not? I asked myself what would be different in my life if there never was a god. The answer is nothing. So why do I need one? Besides, if there is no afterlife, you can bet your bottom I'm gonna enjoy this one. I'm also gonna make sure I love a lot because this is my only shot at it. Hope that helps. Atheists are good for nothing, you know. And I'm proud to be one.

 

[Rufo]

To be honest, it matters very little to me practically whether God actually exists or not. However, I'm too much of a theoretical person and philosopher for that to make a difference - I still call myself an agnostic, simply because I want to admit I have absolutely no idea. Starting to call myself an atheist would make it sound like I have knowledge or even a qualified guess when it comes to the existance of God, which I don't.

Of course, it might be a matter of how you define the words.

 

[Cheesejoff]

If you think God exists you are probably a deist rather than an agnostic.

Deists believe God exists and he created the world but he doesn't intervene in the physical world.

 

[Rufo]

If you think God exists you are probably a deist rather than an agnostic.

Deists believe God exists and he created the world but he doesn't intervene in the physical world.

Deism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. An agnostic can be an atheist, theist, deist, etc. Agnosticism is just saying "we/I don't know [and can never know] whether God exists or not". Theism, deism and atheism are ways to say "but I think...".

 

[rocketdodger]

Really what I'd like to know is, are there others who think there may be a higher power/creator, but reject the christian/judaic/muslim notion as such?

The term "atheist" actually refers to someone who specifically rejects the theistic view of god, not the complete idea of "a god." There is a big difference here.

In my opinion, all intelligent people are atheists -- believing in the theistic god is just stupid.

To answer your question zizzy, yes. However, it is pretty hard to find intelligent people that believe specific notions about this higher power. Pretty much we are all agnostics who are only sure of one thing -- we just don't know.

 

[Rufo]

The term "atheist" actually refers to someone who specifically rejects the theistic view of god, not the complete idea of "a god." There is a big difference here.

What other views are there of God besides the theistic ones? What views of God does atheism not reject?

 

[writerdd]

What other views are there of God besides the theistic ones? What views of God does atheism not reject?

There are many nontheistic views of god. The most common is that god is somehow the good in all people, the source of life or the grounding of all being, or something similar. This could be considered as a metaphoric view of god, but not all who espouse this view would agree with that categorization.

Two prominent Christians (or ex-Christians depending on your viewpoint) are John Shelby Spong and Karen Armstrong. Both state that the question "does god exist" is meaningless for their definition of god.

God can also be considered to be nature or the universe itself, or more specifically "the embodiment of the laws of the universe", which seems to be the definition of god that Einstein and other physicists espouse.

 

[Rufo]

God can also be considered to be nature or the universe itself, or more specifically "the embodiment of the laws of the universe", which seems to be the definition of god that Einstein and other physicists espouse.

Isn't this called pantheism? Isn't pantheism a type of theism?

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

Really what I'd like to know is, are there others who think there may be a higher power/creator, but reject the christian/judaic/muslim notion as such?

You mean agnostics? There's tons. Hell, I might be one. Although I'm probably more deist. You get more chicks being deist.

Welcome to the forum.

SCG

 

[writerdd]

Isn't this called pantheism? Isn't pantheism a type of theism?

No, I think pantheism believes that some supernatural force enhabits everything in the universe, or that everything has a spirit.

This is just thinking that the universe is god, which really doesn't seem to mean anything at all to me.

 

[zizzybaluba]

God can also be considered to be nature or the universe itself, or more specifically "the embodiment of the laws of the universe", which seems to be the definition of god that Einstein and other physicists espouse.

I've always liked Einstein's theological ideas. I recall a quote of his, that he was trying to find whether or not God had any choice in how he made the universe.

I've noticed when comparing religions, there's an awful lot of 'carrot on a stick' similarity in many of them. In particular (and this is probably going to be offensive to Catholics), I see a lot of parallels between the sacraments and tithing, and the OT levels and compulsory "donations" of Scientology. I just can't bring myself to believe that a benevolent creator would require its creations to pay others and do the religious hokey-pokey to gain its favor.

I find I've got a lot of gray area between what I hope vs. what I believe; however the more I experience, the less gray it gets. I hope there’s an afterlife. I don’t know that one exists, I’ll find out when the time comes (and I do certainly hope that time is a long way off). And if some fundie tries to tell me that I’m going straight to hell because I’m not going to church every Sunday, well that to me is evidence of a horrible deity who deserves not worship, but contempt.

 

[Aurelian]

Two prominent Christians (or ex-Christians depending on your viewpoint) are John Shelby Spong and Karen Armstrong. Both state that the question "does god exist" is meaningless for their definition of god.

Spong is a believer, I have him filed as "retired Episcopal bishop" though the Episcopal church may have other things to say about his belonging in the Episcopal category. He gives the literal-Bible folks indigestion.

Armstrong is a former Roman Catholic nun, and is more spiritual. She is intellectually robust when it comes to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I have attended a guest lecture of hers after 9/11 and was impressed with the depth and breadth of her knowledge. She's a solid religious academic more than she is a believer (my interpretation)

Both are good reading. Thanks for putting these folks back on my radar screen.

 

[writerdd]

Spong is a believer, I have him filed as "retired Episcopal bishop" though the Episcopal church may have other things to say about his belonging in the Episcopal category. He gives the literal-Bible folks indigestion.

Actually, Spong does not believe in the supernatural. Check out his book "A New Christianity for a New World" if you haven't read that one. Yes, he is a retired Episcopal bishop. The conservative side of the Anglican church probably think he is the antichrist.

Armstrong is a former Roman Catholic nun, and is more spiritual. She is intellectually robust when it comes to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I have attended a guest lecture of hers after 9/11 and was impressed with the depth and breadth of her knowledge. She's a solid religious academic more than she is a believer (my interpretation)

Both are good reading. Thanks for putting these folks back on my radar screen.

Armstrong used to be a strong atheist but since she's changed her definition of god from the Catholic deity to a metaphor for the source of life (or whatever she calls it), she has said that atheism has no meaning. It's an interesting viewpoint but I doubt the average American on the street has any comprehension of what she might mean by that. Her books are all quite interesting.

 

[rocketdodger]

What other views are there of God besides the theistic ones? What views of God does atheism not reject?

Atheism doesn't reject the notion of "some entity that is more powerful than us and is responsible for our existence."

The theistic view of god, however, tags on a heap of attributes such as omnipotence, omniscience, independence of time and space, self-existence, supremely good, etc.

There are no proofs that cannot be hacked apart for all of the theistic traits, so anyone who still buys them is either stupid or delusional.

But nobody has been able to offer a good argument for why the idea of "something" that some people could interpret as a god of sorts is not valid.

 

[wolfgirl]

I used to call myself an agnostic, partly because I was unsure and partly, I must admit, because it just sounded better than "atheist." But at some point, I realized that, even though I couldn't know for sure if there is a god or not, my strong opinion is that there is not. (Seem like the default position to me...we're all born atheists and learn about whichever form of god our parents choose to teach us about.) Therefore, I started calling myself an atheist and never looked back. I don't shout it on the streets (though I have a Darwin fish on my car), but if anyone asks, I will tell them I'm an atheist.

 

[dahduh]

Hi Zizzy,

I think if you take a 'man from mars' approach to the whole business of God you will notice that:

1. People generally adopt the religion they have grown up with;
2. Religions that evolved separately are very different;
3. Religions place great value on things like faith, dedication, and self-denial.

In other words, the evidence suggests that religion is a cultural phenomenon, they do not rest upon some external foundation (i.e. an objective God), and that they have evolved powerful mechanisms for self-propagation.

If this is correct, you can expect that your upbringing as a Catholic powerfully influences your view of God, and that these views are not necessarily related to an objective reality. You appear to be uncomfortable with the idea of _not_ believing in God, and you should therefore consider the possibility that your education has had something to do with this. You might find it instructive to stand outside of everything you have ever been told to think about God, and approach it anew. And if you can't find any manifest evidence for God, in the same way we see evidence for gravity or evolution or quarks, well then; you are free to look to your own psychology, understand your needs as a human being, and direct them down the most constructive channel.

The non-existence of a loving God does not imply your abandonment to an indifferent Universe any more than your need for God implies the existence of a loving God; and you might in fact find it a relief and a liberation to do without him entirely and rely upon your own resources for a change. Many Christians live in a state of angst because they worry their faith is not 'strong' enough, which is rather sad.

This is not to say that 'God', as creator of the Universe does not exist, and whether you appeal to the fine-tuning problem or anthropic principle to argue the case one way or another is at present very much a matter of taste. But really, if you were God, isn't it likely that you would have better things to do than worry about what humans are getting up to?

Dahduh.