Amnesty Internations becomes seriously political

Elind

Philosopher
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I'm surprised no one has posted this one yet. Obviously many of us have disagreements about imprisonment of "alleged" terrorists and I am not wanting to open that can here, but I would like to ask what others think of this type of report from Amnesty. It's not the first by a long shot that takes aim at the US.

I can remember as a boy admiring AI as the one organization that would take up causes that everyone else ignored. Individual prisoners of conscience all over the world; and governments paid attention because they, AI, did not try to offend for its own sake.

The past years I have come to see it as a self serving entity that thinks it has a monopoly on morality and as an organization that depends on contributions, it has decided that it cannot have the respect of everyone and make good money, so it will go for the most emotional sector of the public at large, and in particular all those who hate the US. Ethics aside, it makes good business sense I suppose :(

(PS let's try to avoid this becoming a commentary on Cheney, business or not)









WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday he was offended by Amnesty International's condemnation of the United States for what it called "serious human rights violations" at Guantanamo Bay.

"For Amnesty International to suggest that somehow the United States is a violator of human rights, I frankly just don't take them seriously," he said in an interview that was to air Monday night on CNN's "Larry King Live."

Amnesty International was scathing last week in its criticism of the way the United States has run the detention center at its naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"We have documented that the U.S. government is a leading purveyor and practitioner of the odious human rights violation," William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International USA, said Wednesday.

On its Web site, the London, England-based human rights group says: "As evidence of torture and widespread cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment mounts, it is more urgent than ever that the U.S. government bring the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and any other facilities it is operating outside the USA into full compliance with international law and standards. The only alternative is to close them down."

The vice president said the United States has freed millions of people from oppression.

"I think the fact of the matter is, the United States has done more to advance the cause of freedom, has liberated more people from tyranny over the course of the 20th century and up to the present day than any other nation in the history of the world. ....more
 
Elind said:
On its Web site, the London, England-based human rights group says: "As evidence of torture and widespread cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment mounts, it is more urgent than ever that the U.S. government bring the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and any other facilities it is operating outside the USA into full compliance with international law and standards. The only alternative is to close them down."

The vice president said the United States has freed millions of people from oppression.

"I think the fact of the matter is, the United States has done more to advance the cause of freedom, has liberated more people from tyranny over the course of the 20th century and up to the present day than any other nation in the history of the world. ....more

So, the vice president counters accusations of mistreatment at Guantanamo with a non sequitur? Whether his statement is true or false is open to debate; it sure as hell doesn't answer the question. Why didn't he say "no, we're not mistreating them"?
 
Re: Re: Amnesty Internations becomes seriously political

TragicMonkey said:
So, the vice president counters accusations of mistreatment at Guantanamo with a non sequitur? Whether his statement is true or false is open to debate; it sure as hell doesn't answer the question. Why didn't he say "no, we're not mistreating them"?

Pretty well sums it up. He is reply is the fallacy of diversion.
 
AI clearly overstates the case. The US is abusing prisoners but no where nearly as bad as most of the countries in the world. To call American actions a "gulag" insults the memory of the gulag sufferers and most political prisoners in the world. I would applaud a more accurate and less inflamatory description of the US abuses.

I think AI has discredited itself with exageration and that's a pity. I do think they should hold the US (and other free countries) to higher standard than traditionally bad countries because it is very sad and demoralizing to see freedom disappear.

The response to Chaney "An Amnesty executive hit back saying Cheney also does not take seriously torture and the Geneva Convention" is an appropriate criticism. Gulag comparisons are not.

CBL
 
Cheney had no response to the substance of the allegations, hence his sidestep.

The issue was not if it was as big as the Gulag of the USSR, but if it was like the Gulag or not. According to AI, it fits the bill.
 
a_unique_person said:
Cheney had no response to the substance of the allegations, hence his sidestep.

The issue was not if it was as big as the Gulag of the USSR, but if it was like the Gulag or not. According to AI, it fits the bill.

And they can change the defintion because...?

I'm sorry but calling it a Gulag is an obvious way to emotionaly charge the situation with out having the facts to back it up. And they don't have anything in that report to put it anywhere near Gulag.
 
Grammatron said:
And they can change the defintion because...?

I'm sorry but calling it a Gulag is an obvious way to emotionaly charge the situation with out having the facts to back it up. And they don't have anything in that report to put it anywhere near Gulag.

In what way did they change the definition? A small Gulag is still a Gulag.
 
a_unique_person said:
In what way did they change the definition? A small Gulag is still a Gulag.

All the definitions I found of "gulag" involve forced labor. A gulag is a prison, but a prison isn't necessarily a gulag.
 
Elind said:
I'm surprised no one has posted this one yet. Obviously many of us have disagreements about imprisonment of "alleged" terrorists and I am not wanting to open that can here, but I would like to ask what others think of this type of report from Amnesty. It's not the first by a long shot that takes aim at the US.

I can remember as a boy admiring AI as the one organization that would take up causes that everyone else ignored. Individual prisoners of conscience all over the world; and governments paid attention because they, AI, did not try to offend for its own sake.

The past years I have come to see it as a self serving entity that thinks it has a monopoly on morality and as an organization that depends on contributions, it has decided that it cannot have the respect of everyone and make good money, so it will go for the most emotional sector of the public at large, and in particular all those who hate the US. Ethics aside, it makes good business sense I suppose :(

(PS let's try to avoid this becoming a commentary on Cheney, business or not)


The post-revolution gulags to which AI so cavalierly refers represent one of the great genocidal tragedies known to man. Their horrors -- captured in terrifying detail by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago and, more recently, by Anne Applebaum in Gulag: a History -- are almost beyond comprehension. Tens of millions of people passed through the camps. Freezing temperatures, starvation, forced labour, rape and summary execution were the order of the day. Although it is impossible to calculate a precise death toll, historians accept that the camps claimed millions of lives."

http://www.canada.com/national/nati...88-7460283539a7

"The US has much to answer for regarding treatment of those held at Guantanamo; however, I am disgusted by comparisons with notorious soviet gulags. Such comparisons highlight AI's increasingly political, anti-americanism. They have lost credibility with me. I no longer support them financially."


The only response i got was from that caricature Cleon ... I assumed nobody was interested
 
Re: Re: Amnesty Internations becomes seriously political

celter said:

http://www.canada.com/national/nati...88-7460283539a7

"The US has much to answer for regarding treatment of those held at Guantanamo; however, I am disgusted by comparisons with notorious soviet gulags. Such comparisons highlight AI's increasingly political, anti-americanism. They have lost credibility with me. I no longer support them financially."


The only response i got was from that caricature Cleon ... I assumed nobody was interested

Your link doesn't work.
 
AI clearly overstates the case.

How do you know? Have you seen what they've seen?

The US is abusing prisoners...

But Cheney can't even bring himself to admit that some bad apples under their watch violated the human rights of people, and can't handle any criticism whatsoever about them ignoring due process rights of persons who they can't decide if they're prisoners of war or criminals.

...but no where nearly as bad as most of the countries in the world.

Are you sure? You're probably right, but I hear there is more to be revealed about US abuses.

To call American actions a "gulag" insults the memory of the gulag sufferers and most political prisoners in the world. I would applaud a more accurate and less inflamatory description of the US abuses.

You mean one you'd rather believe? How do you know AI is wrong?

I think AI has discredited itself with exageration and that's a pity.

I think whatever happened there it must be serious for them to make such claims. Too many people are making claims now to dismiss all of them as liberal political bias.

... The response to Chaney "An Amnesty executive hit back saying Cheney also does not take seriously torture and the Geneva Convention" is an appropriate criticism. Gulag comparisons are not.

Yes... at least that. But I wonder how Cheney does that Jedi mind-trick on weak minded republicans.

And who here has heard of the secret Downing Street Memo yet?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
http://www.johnconyers.campaignoffi...RMS&SEC={0F1B03E0-080B-4100-B143-36A5985EF1E3
 
normdoering said:
AI clearly overstates the case.

How do you know? Have you seen what they've seen?

Well then by all means, let them put forth evidence that Guantanom is a gulag, I will be right here holding my breath.
 
Re: Re: Re: Amnesty Internations becomes seriously political

celter said:
The only response i got was from that caricature Cleon ... I assumed nobody was interested
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57471

sorry still figuring out how to quote:)

You're apparently also still figuring out how to identify people, considering I didn't post in that thread at all.
 
I generally think AI does a good job and I've been a member of them for a long time. But they do have to be careful in emotionally charged times. Using a word like "gulag" for Gitmo is a foolish thing to do IMO.

The point of AI (back when I first joined at least) was to have a single, uniform standard for human rights (roughly speaking) and apply it to everyone while simultaneously staying out of politics. Of course, that's easier said than done because when tell someone they're violating human rights they think you're interfering in their local politics.

Now and then we hear of AI coming down on the US for human rights violations and the reaction in the US often is "How can they come down on the US for thinks like the Qu'ran in toilets while ignoring the chopping off of heads by Al Qaeda?" But I assume and hope that AI produces reports condemning those things too but that those things just don't get as much press in the US.
 
My understanding is that AI has never visited Gitmo. Do they claim that they have?
 
Re: Re: Amnesty Internations becomes seriously political

TragicMonkey said:
So, the vice president counters accusations of mistreatment at Guantanamo with a non sequitur? Whether his statement is true or false is open to debate; it sure as hell doesn't answer the question. Why didn't he say "no, we're not mistreating them"?

That was a pretty off topic and utterly predictable reply (that I tried to head off, unsuccessfuly) that has been hashed out, is being hashed out, in numerous other threads.

The opinion solicited is whether AI is becoming an organization with a political agenda, not one that is concerned for individual freedom from repression.
 
Elind said:
I don't know, but what would be the point since they have made it clear that they know everything anyway?

Hearsay, for one thing. Secondly, if they are willing to make sweeping and potentially defanitory remarks against the US on such a basis, I would expect to see similar press for China, Syria, and the other charmers out there.
 

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