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alternative therapies for animals, advice please

trotsky

Student
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
35
i have just started a course on canine behaviour and training and am looking for some advice. one of the modules is alternative therapy for dogs and the lecturer has already started talking about chiropractice and homeopathy practiced on canines. How would you handle having to write a report on this subject from a skeptical point of view? knowing that the person who is marking your course work for the next 2 years has a BSc Chemistry and a Diploma in Homeopathy.
I'm stuck on the horns of a dilema, I wouldnt like to lie for the sake of it, but i did at college, pretending to be a feminist and got great marks so...? thanks
 
Ask for references of double blind studies and provide an objective review. We'll help. Incidentially, with those references that person probably does not know diddly about research.
 
You ought to look at the Task Force for Veterinary Science. There is also a mailing list there which is very active. It has a number of very knowledgable vets on it, and welcomes non-vet members wanting to discuss any aspect of what you're referring to. Considering the nature of your course, you'd definitely find this a helpful place to discuss the rationale of anything a bit suspect-sounding you might be offered. (You might also be shocked to your socks by the unadulterated lunacy of some of the stuff that gets brought up for discussion, but that's the fault of the nutty stuff that's out there.)

You might also find Quackwatch useful, with its associated sites Chirobase and HomeoWatch, as much of the woo-woo which afflicts animals has been ported wholesale from human medicine.

The British Veterinary Voodoo Society is rather fun too, specifically focussing on the magical aspects of homoeopathy.

Rolfe.
 
"May I please correct Dr. Ryan's misconception when she states that "Homeopathy is ... a recognised sub-speciality of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" (RCVS).

This is not the case. The RCVS specifically refuses to recognise any homoeopathic qualification or diploma, and holders of these are not permitted to include them in their entries in the Register. Technically, homoeopathic vets ought not even to put the VetMFHom after their name when using their MRCVS, including on professional stationery, but this is frequently disregarded.

A few years ago pressure was exerted both to change this ruling and (in a separate quarter) to affiliate the British Association of Homoeopathic Veterinary Surgeons (BAHVS) to the British Veterinary Association (BVA) as a specialist division.

BVA Council rejected the application with no votes in favour. The RCVS also rejected the request to recognise homoeopathic qualifications, but it did concede a list of vets with diplomas from the Faculty of Homoeopaths (VetMFHom and VetFFHom) in the Register. Ostensibly, this was purely to help members of the public find homoeopathic vets and prevent them from resorting to lay homoeopaths.

However, some time later a printer's error led to this list becoming intermingled with those of specialists and diploma holders. Since that error appeared, members of the BAHVS have been capitalising on it and falsely claiming various degrees of specialist status.

This matter has now been drawn to the attention of the Registration Sub-Committee, and I have a letter from the Registrar on the matter which says, in part:

"It has been agreed that the list of veterinary surgeons holding the VetMFHom qualification will in future appear on a different page of the Register so as to avoid any inference that they are recognised by the RCVS as a specialist qualification. The list will also be prefaced with a form of words that makes it clear that the qualifications are not in any way approved by the RCVS but are published so that the profession and the public know which veterinary surgeons have such a qualification."

I hope this clarifies the matter. "

FROM : http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/326/7396/S151#35673


Which is quite an interesting read
 
Prester John said:
"May I please correct Dr. Ryan's misconception when she states that "Homeopathy is ... a recognised sub-speciality of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" (RCVS).

This is not the case. (snip....)

I hope this clarifies the matter. "

FROM : http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/326/7396/S151#35673
Ooooh, I wonder who wrote that???? Er, um, maybe I should leave that question strictly alone.

But in that context do have a look at the latest update on the Voodoo Society web site. How long does it take to amend a basic text web page?

Rolfe.
 
trotsky said:
knowing that the person who is marking your course work for the next 2 years has a BSc Chemistry and a Diploma in Homeopathy.
I'm stuck on the horns of a dilema, I wouldnt like to lie for the sake of it, but i did at college, pretending to be a feminist and got great marks so...? thanks

A BSc in chemistry AND a diploma in homeopathy? I hate to see a chemist gone bad... though more likely this person never learned chemistry in the first place.

I would write a detailed paper on how homeopathy is nothing but a fake, phony and a fraud.
 
Thanks for that everyone, I'll look at those links when i'm back from work. cheers......esp. Rolf...... not the Rolf.... can you tell what it is yet?
 
Ed said:
Ask for references of double blind studies.
I feel I ought to say something about the "randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled study" (RDBPCT for short). It's vital to understand that this isn't the standard test that every medicine must pass in order to be accepted - far from it. It is in fact the last resort "magnifying glass" study to try to figure whether there's anything there at all in cases where any effect is so tiny that its very existence is in doubt.

Unfortunately virtually all "alternative medicine" is in this category.

Thus, when I see a paper title including these words, I know before I even read it that the subject is probably some sort of weird woo-woo which is being gleefully hyped by the "natural medicine" brigade, but which has so little real effect that nobody's really sure whether it has any at all. So, the very fact that a RDBPCT has been done in the first place raises my level of suspicion that there's likely to be precious little effect there (if any). You WON'T find such trials in the literature for most "real" medicine, even recently introduced drugs, for the very simple fact that they are impractical, unnecessary and unethical.

Consider. Placebo control. That means half your patient group gets nothing. Where there is already an existing treatment with proven efficacy (as there usually is) there's no way any ethics committee would allow that. What is really required is a comparison with existing best practice, not with nothing at all.

Double blind. That means that neither the researcher nor the person looking after the animal knows which has been given. Often totally impractical for a comparison to an existing drug. What if the standard treatment is an injection, but the new drug is a pill? Most of the time, it's simply impossible to dress the things up as being the same.

Randomised. Actually, do we NEED more data on the existing treatment? It's almost certainly been studied ad nauseam already.

In fact what usually happens is that something which looks promising in preliminary work (rational mode of action, good results in in vitro testing, experimental animal testing and so on) is finally judged as ready to be tried on patients. A group of volunteer patients is recruited, given full information about what's going on (or their owners in the case of animal patients), and given the new drug. They are monitored very closely indeed, and the performance of the new drug compared to the already-known performance of the existing drug.

For example, a new drug introduced recently to canine medicine is trilostane, for the treatment of something called Cushing's disease. The previous treatment, mitotane, had a very powerful effect and often worked well, but it had a poor safety margin and it was unlicensed. Trilostane was assessed in a group of suitable patients and found to perform comparably to mitotane so far as clinical response was concerned, and with a much better safety margin. On this basis, a product licence was granted. But you certainly won't find a RDBPCT study assessing trilostane!

(As an aside, this drug works so well that the vet who was featured on the famous Horizon programme extolling the virtues of homoeopathic treatment for Cushing's disease, told me last week that now when people come to him looking for homoeopathy for this condition, he recommends trilostane instead!)

In contrast, a paper was published recently looking at a herbal remedy for arthritis in the dog. The study compared the remedy to a placebo, and in order to satisfy ethical considerations, scope had to be allowed for the owner administering a standard painkiller as well if they thought the dogs were still in pain. This of course did muddy the water to some extent, but the powers that be required it.

Several different measurements were made, some subjective, some objective. The only clear and obvious finding was that the herbal remedy made the dogs smell funny. As a result the investigators were unblinded - they knew from the smell which dogs were on the herbal treatment. However, the owners didn't appear to recognise the implications of the smell, as they saw only their own dog. None of the objective measurements showed any benefit of the herbal treatment over placebo, and neither did the owners' subjective assessment. However, the investigators' subjective assessment came out as significant for the herbal at p<0.05.

The most obvious point here is that it was the measurement made subjectively by the unblinded investigators which reached significance. It's perfectly possible that even though they tried to remain impartial, once they knew which dogs were which by the smell, a little bit of wishful interpretation was going on.

The second important point however is that four different measurements were made of these dogs' condition. If you do 20 measurements comparing 2 groups in which there is actually no difference between them, one would be expected to show a significant difference at p<0.05, purely by chance. So, by doing 4 measurements, you actually have a 20% probability that one of these will show up at p<0.05, even if the groups aren't different at all.

Much of this is discussed in the paper, nevertheless the words appear, "P45FP (the herbal remedy made to sound scientific) may have a positive effect on on the clinical signs of canine osteoarthritis." Also, "P45FP appears to have a good safety profile." If I wanted to argue that P45FP was effective medicine, I'd point to this RDBPCT and quote the statistically significant measurement and these phrases. And you'd be hard put to argue with me. But in fact sensible assessment of that paper says that the only thing the herbal preparation appeared to do was make the dogs smelly.

So, here we have a very effective, licensed medicine (trilostane) with nothing in print even remotely resembling a RDBPCT, and a herbal with little or no evidence of any beneficial effect, but with a RDBPCT in print claiming statistical benefit.

You really do have to read the small print pretty carefully. But remember - anything with an obvious, self-evident effect doesn't need an RDBPCT to show efficacy, and it would probably be held to be unethical to do one. Anything which NEEDS such a study to demonstrate an effect, even if it does manage to yield a statistically significant result, probably has an effect so small that in clinical terms it's hardly worth having.

There are exceptions to this of course, particularly when looking at conditions with no effective treatment so far available, and where a new remedy might perhaps reveal a new principle which can be researched further in the hope of achieving a bigger, clinically useful effect. But in general, real drugs don't have RDBPCT evidence, and if you have to search that closely for evidence, you don't have much there at all.

Rolfe.
 

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