Alternative Diesel? For real?

[Roadtoad]

Ran across this one today. Frankly, I'm not good enough with chemistry to say, "Yeah, this is a good move." $.46 a gallon would be great, but not if it doesn't work.

Read through it. What do you think?

 

[brodski]

Ran across this one today. Frankly, I'm not good enough with chemistry to say, "Yeah, this is a good move." $.46 a gallon would be great, but not if it doesn't work.

Read through it. What do you think?

he whole site feels very woo. It is certainly difficult to get an exact picture of what they are claiming.
On the other hand you can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil, I believe that they where originally designed for peanut oil- but this could just be snopes-fodder.
The trouble is, I have never seen any data on what damage running a modern diesel engine on vegetable oil may cause. Another thing to check out is your local tax laws, in the UK HMCE prosecuted a number of people for tax evasion for using vegetable oil as an untaxed fuel.

 

[Earthborn]

It is certainly possible to make a diesel engine run on straight vegetable oil. Some modifications need to be made to the engine or the oil to prevent some problems that might occur in cold weather or after long use, but this is certainly within the realm of the possible. But it is probably not as easy as they make it sound to filter and mix the vegetable oil with the additive.

It is a pity they don't tell us what the additive they sell actually is. Very likely it is a very common product that can be bought for far less. My guess: it is colourised ordinary petrodiesel sold for 12.99 a bottle (looks like about 2 liters to me)...

From the wikipedia link:

With unmodified engines the unfavourable effects can be reduced by blending, or “cutting”, the SVO with diesel fuel.

 

[_Q_]

It's certainly not unheard of to operate at least some types of diesel engines on vegetable oil. The old Mercedes-Benz diesels out there are particularly popular candidates.

There are a couple of approaches commonly used here in the U.S. One is to use a 2-tank system (one with ordinary petroleum diesel, one with vegetable oil). Such a system uses some sort of heater arrangement (either electric or using waste heat from the engine) to heat the VO to achieve a lower viscosity before the engine's fuel system sees it. A multi-port switching valve and associated plumbing allow the engine to be started initially on petro diesel, then switched over to VO when it can be delivered suitably hot. The switch back to petro diesel is performed before shutting down so that it's not trying to start on thick, cold VO the next time. Several commercial systems are available.

Other approaches include (1) running straight VO without any modifications, (2) running a mixture of VO and petro diesel, and (3) running a mixture of VO and regular gasoline. Some limits are imposed by the climate (most popular in warm areas). Opinions vary wildly on how good (or bad) these various options might be for the long-term health of the engine and fuel system. Much of the information out there is anecdotal, and it's not always from unbiased sources.

I'll also add here that the economics of the deal also have everything to do with how much it costs one (in personal time, fuel, filters, etc.) to locate, collect, and prepare the VO.

It is my understanding that it is not necessarily easy (or even possible) to get it for free in some areas. Used cooking oil has some commercial value for a number of uses, so it should come as no surprise that many restaurants, especially large chains, have contracts with companies for collection. I don't see but how this could only get more, not less, prevalent in the future.

In California, I believe that there are also specific legal requirements and licensing involved in order to legally collect and transport such oil.

 

[luchog]

It is certainly possible to make a diesel engine run on straight vegetable oil. Some modifications need to be made to the engine or the oil to prevent some problems that might occur in cold weather or after long use, but this is certainly within the realm of the possible. But it is probably not as easy as they make it sound to filter and mix the vegetable oil with the additive.

It is a pity they don't tell us what the additive they sell actually is. Very likely it is a very common product that can be bought for far less. My guess: it is colourised ordinary petrodiesel sold for 12.99 a bottle (looks like about 2 liters to me)...

Actually, it's far easier than you make it sound.

To run a diesel engine on vegetable oil, all that is needed is to remove excess glycerine from the oil (usually with sodium hydroxide, creating a sort of crude soap); and add a few anti-freeze additives, precisely the same as is done with petrol diesel. That's all that is needed, and it is is functionally identical.

Another advantage is that it burns cleaner than the high-sulphur diesel common in the US; and thus works better in current European diesel engines.

I have several aquaintances who run modern TDI diesel vehicles on bio-diesel; and two of the local public transportation systems (Metro busses and the ferry system) run their diesel vehicles on a biodiesel blend (the mandate is for blends approaching pure biodiesel as much as possible, dependent upon availability). Unfortunately, production is low enough that the cost is still fairly high; but with current petrol prices being what they are, it is only a short distance away from being competitive. Another small rise in petrol prices, or small drop in biodiesel costs, and the only issue will be local availability of biodiesel.

ETA: Just checked out the site; and it's bunk. It's clearly using recycled vegetable oil; while making BS claims about biodiesel. All they are doing is using unrefined biodiesel, using an additive to prevent gelling. And they try desperately to create FUD about the use of lye (sodium hydroxide, used in many common household cleaners) and methanol (a form of alcohol commonly used in household cleaning solutions) to refine biodiesel and reduce its gel point; while completely ignoring the fact that using unrefined biodiesel will be much harder on the engine in the long run (burns dirtier and requires more frequent filter changes and engine servicing). Not to mention the increased level of particulate matter in the exhaust.

As P&T would say, it's B*llsh*t!

 

[luchog]

In California, I believe that there are also specific legal requirements and licensing involved in order to legally collect and transport such oil.

In Washington State, it has been fairly easy to collect used vegetable oil, and home refining kits costing a couple hundred dollars have been available for some time.

I'm not sure if that's still the case, however, as my last investigation of recycled biodiesel was a couple years ago.

 

[Scott Haley]

Some people run their cars on fuel made from used cooking oil, and this looks like they're selling a system to do that. No fresh, unused oil I know of could be bought for 46 cents a gallon.

 

[ohms]

It is a pity they don't tell us what the additive they sell actually is. Very likely it is a very common product that can be bought for far less. My guess: it is colourised ordinary petrodiesel sold for 12.99 a bottle (looks like about 2 liters to me)...

According to this site:

A couple of years ago a cars program on British TV publicised a new way of using vegetable oil as diesel fuel -- "just add a spoonful" of solvent.

The solvent was white spirit (mineral turpentine), with 3% added to the veg-oil to lower the viscosity and also to lower the flash point so the engine would start easier.

It raised a lot of interest among novices, and a lot of scepticism among experienced SVO users: "experimental at best" and "steer well clear" were among the more polite comments.

This thread has a discussion from some people who have tried it.

ETA:

I recall some trial using rapeseed oil as a diesel substitute but I have no idea what the results were

 

[_Q_]

Actually, it's far easier than you make it sound.

To run a diesel engine on vegetable oil, all that is needed is to remove excess glycerine from the oil (usually with sodium hydroxide, creating a sort of crude soap); and add a few anti-freeze additives, precisely the same as is done with petrol diesel. That's all that is needed, and it is is functionally identical.

I think you're talking about something substantially different than Earthborn and I were.

Although the word biodiesel is sometimes used to refer to simple vegetable oil, I think it more commonly is used to refer to a fuel that is made from vegetable oil or animal fats. It's the product obtained by transesterifying said oils and fats. Removal of glycerin is part of the process, but said glycerin is formed as a byproduct of the transesterification - it wasn't floating around in the original oil as "excess glycerine".

Chemical conversion is involved here, not just some sort of purification of the original oils.

 

[Earthborn]

To run a diesel engine on vegetable oil, all that is needed is to remove excess glycerine from the oil (usually with sodium hydroxide, creating a sort of crude soap); and add a few anti-freeze additives, precisely the same as is done with petrol diesel.

No, that's making biodiesel, and that's not what this site is promoting. Also, I think you make it sound far easier than it is. It may not be a terribly complex process, but it is still pretty finnicky if you try to homebrew a tankfull. Here is a recipe for doing it, and you'll have to remember that when you try to make enough biodiesel to use, you'll need large amounts of the chemicals clearly listed as dangerous.

Personally I think the average person will find it difficult enough filtering and mixing all their fuel like the 'Diesel Secret Energy' site expects them to do, and they'll be back to the pump soon enough thinking it is not worth the effort.

while completely ignoring the fact that using unrefined biodiesel will be much harder on the engine in the long run (burns dirtier and requires more frequent filter changes and engine servicing). Not to mention the increased level of particulate matter in the exhaust.

They're not ignoring it: that's where the magical 'additive' comes in. They are suggesting that if you mix it in, the oil can be used without problem.

 

[luchog]

No, that's making biodiesel, and that's not what this site is promoting.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, as you'd know if you'd read my entire post.

Also, I think you make it sound far easier than it is. It may not be a terribly complex process, but it is still pretty finnicky if you try to homebrew a tankfull. Here is a recipe for doing it, and you'll have to remember that when you try to make enough biodiesel to use, you'll need large amounts of the chemicals clearly listed as dangerous.

Actually, it is very easy. Far moreso that that ridiculous homebrew method would indicate. As previously noted, there are inexpensive kits available that automate the process and eliminate the need to spend large amounts of time exposed to noxious chemicals. I've seen them in use, myself. They do not turn out as thoroughly refined a product as the commercial processes; but are more than adequate for the purpose and the resulting fuel does not contribute significantly to engine wear or degredation. They do recommend adding a blend of about 20% of petrol diesel to raise the gel point, as it's still rather on the high side (adding a heater to the fuel line/tank is also an option).

The chemicals involved are certainly not significantly more dangerous than those commonly used in home photographic darkrooms.

Personally I think the average person will find it difficult enough filtering and mixing all their fuel like the 'Diesel Secret Energy' site expects them to do, and they'll be back to the pump soon enough thinking it is not worth the effort.

The average person has excessive difficulty in simply changing his own oil, which is why there are several competing chains of

Home refining is no more for the averate person than homebrewing, home power generation, clothes-making, soapmaking, or any other sort of self-sufficiency activity. It's for a dedicated hobbiest or enthusiast willing to put in the time and effort to educate themselves about the processes and techniques involved. It's only the woo-woos that suggest otherwise.

They're not ignoring it: that's where the magical 'additive' comes in. They are suggesting that if you mix it in, the oil can be used without problem.

If you're going to get into a semantic debate, then I guess it would be more accurate to say that they are aware of the problem; but deliberately denying it in order to sell their magic formula.

 

[LTC8K6]

The U.S. will be using low sulfur diesel any minute now, though.

Jeep just killed the diesel Liberty because it can't meet stricter emissions requirements for 2007.

We will supposedly be getting a Jeep Cherokee with a Bluetec diesel, which should be interesting.