Alternate History

[catsmate]

As I've said elsewhere in the forum I'm a bit of an obsessive fan of alternat(iv)e history, or counterfactuals as some academics call them, that is history that didn't happen. I'm not sure exactly why, though I'm also interested in actual history, even to the point of (nearly) completing a doctorate in it.
I've been reading¹ and collecting them for over a quarter century, some good, some bad, some awful, many mediocre.

So, are there any other fans in here? Any favourite themes? World War 2, US Civil War, or paths less taken..........
Recommended books?



¹ Mostly, there aren't a lot of films or TV programmes² in this area compared to mainstream SF.

² Please don't mention Sliders,

 

[SpitfireIX]

My personal favorite is Harry Turtledove's so-called Southern Victory series, which postulates that the Confederacy won the American Civil War. At eleven books, however, it's definitely not for the faint of heart. The first trilogy (Great War), covers World War I, the second trilogy (American Empire) deals with the interwar years, and the third tetralogy (Settling Accounts) covers World War II. There's also a "prequel" (actually written first) called How Few Remain that describes a USA/CSA rematch in the 1880s.

The books do have a few warts, however. Turtledove has an annoying penchant for inserting "inside" (for lack of a better term) jokes in his work, for example, there's a famous American comedy family known as The Engels Brothers. Also, he sometimes uses real historical personalities who, due to the butterfly effect, either wouldn't have been born or would likely have remained obscure. And sometimes the historical personalities are inserted merely for laugh value, for example, young Fidel Castro and Jimmy Carter make appearances during World War II, but don't have any effect on the story line.

The foregoing aside, I highly recommend the books to anyone who's interested in alternate military history.

 

[dudalb]

Frankly, I thought that the Southren Victory series went on too long and Turtledove ran out of steam halfway through. I gave up after it became clear that he was just recycling The Third Reich on a practically person by person basis in the last teteralogy.
Frankly, I thought "Guns Of The South" was better.
My own favorite alternant history remains Phlip K Dick's "The Man In The High Castle".

 

[SpitfireIX]

Frankly, I thought that the Southren Victory series went on too long and Turtledove ran out of steam halfway through. I gave up after it became clear that he was just recycling The Third Reich on a practically person by person basis in the last teteralogy.
Frankly, I thought "Guns Of The South" was better.
My own favorite alternant history remains Phlip K Dick's "The Man In The High Castle".

I meant to mention that the interwar trilogy seemed far longer than it needed to be; it could probably have been covered in one book.

As for recycling the Third Reich, I agree with that up to a point, but other than the glaringly obvious one I'd be hard-pressed to name any Confederates who were analogues to actual Nazis (as opposed to filling the same positions in the government). My best friend and I both read the series as each book came out, and well before the start of World War II we correctly predicted a lot of what was going to happen.

I would say that the first trilogy and the prequel are definitely the best of the series.

ETA: I did really like The Guns of the South, but that's actually science fiction, rather than alternate history.

 

[Garrison]

I quite enjoy the 'Ring of Fire' series by Eric Flint and several co-authors. A town from the current day is whisked back to 1632 Europe and creates an alternate history. Just avoid the Virginia DeMarce collaborations.

 

[angrysoba]

I like novels which are set in worlds with an alternative history. For example, Robert Harris' Fatherland was good (or at least, I enjoyed it but read it about fifteen years ago or more...)

But I don't really like counterfactual history books which are supposed to be serious academic works. I think that claims about what may have happened need to be very cautiously made because any time one event about the past is altered then I think the historian doing this is opening the floodgates for other suppositions.

I think it is okay to say, "If Hitler had been given a place in Vienna's art school then the Second World War may never have happened." But I don't think that any serious historian should sketch an alternative reality in too much detail. It may only be useful for assessing the importance of other factors about the Second World War.

 

[FattyCatty]

I, too, like the Eric Flint 1632 series. I also like The Peshawar Lancers by S.M. Stirling. And the Belisarius series^WP by Eric Flint and David Drake is another favorite (published by Baen Books).

 

[MG1962]

As I've said elsewhere in the forum I'm a bit of an obsessive fan of alternat(iv)e history, or counterfactuals as some academics call them, that is history that didn't happen. I'm not sure exactly why, though I'm also interested in actual history, even to the point of (nearly) completing a doctorate in it.
I've been reading¹ and collecting them for over a quarter century, some good, some bad, some awful, many mediocre.

So, are there any other fans in here? Any favourite themes? World War 2, US Civil War, or paths less taken..........
Recommended books?



¹ Mostly, there aren't a lot of films or TV programmes² in this area compared to mainstream SF.

² Please don't mention Sliders,

Harry Turtledove

There is also a hefty anthology http://www.amazon.com/The-Mammoth-Book-Alternate-Histories/dp/0762438428

Which I have read - was not to bad. Across the bottom of the Amazon page are a list of books I have not read.

Also a lot of steam punk does alternative Victorian history, if you want some recommendations there - let me know

 

[MG1962]

I like novels which are set in worlds with an alternative history. For example, Robert Harris' Fatherland was good (or at least, I enjoyed it but read it about fifteen years ago or more...)

I know we are talking books - but the film was extremely good - Well worked out history actually

 

[Kotatsu]

Turtledove has an annoying penchant for inserting "inside" (for lack of a better term) jokes in his work, for example, there's a famous American comedy family known as The Engels Brothers.

I reread his Worldwar and Colonization series last autumn, and I found the most irritating habit of Turtledove to be how he treats the British. I didn't keep notes, but I think it would be impossible to find a chapter in any of the books which has someone British as the POV character that doesn't include the following sequence:

- Character 1 (British) makes a lame joke;
- Turtledove points out that this is irony (whether or not it is...);
- Turtledove mentions that Character 2 -- as usual -- does not want to lose the continuing irony competition;
- Character 2 (British) makes another lame joke;
- Turtledove points out that this is irony (whether or not it is);
- In case it wasn't obvious, Turtledove points out, again, how the preceding section was all humour (whether or not it was).

This gets very tedious after a few books...

---

I liked Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan" which is about the WWI, but fought between the Clankers (Austria, Germany) and the Darwinists (England, France). The former have giant robots and rely on machinery, whereas the latter have evolved animals to serve them in sometimes ingenious ways.

The Darwinists have a gigantic whale-blimp which is kept flying by special hydrogen-producing bacteria in its stomach. Communication between the command centre and the rest of the blimp are by voice-imitating parrots, and their main weapon is a swarm of bats with small metal parts in their stomachs, which will tear through enemy aircraft.

 

[catsmate]

Frankly, I thought that the Southren Victory series went on too long and Turtledove ran out of steam halfway through. I gave up after it became clear that he was just recycling The Third Reich on a practically person by person basis in the last teteralogy.

Yes, many of his books could do with losing a hundred pages or so.

I meant to mention that the interwar trilogy seemed far longer than it needed to be; it could probably have been covered in one book.

I agree, his exposition of inter-war politics was rather dragged out.

Frankly, I thought "Guns Of The South" was better.

ETA: I did really like The Guns of the South, but that's actually science fiction, rather than alternate history.

Meh, it created and alternate history so I'd include it. One of Turtledove's better books I think.
Actually in my ongoing GURPS Infinite Worlds campaign it is an alternate world; it doesn't take much of a tweak to change the fixed 150 year time machine into a paratime machine.

My own favorite alternant history remains Phlip K Dick's "The Man In The High Castle".

I never liked this. Perhaps it's time for a re-read.

As for recycling the Third Reich, I agree with that up to a point, but other than the glaringly obvious one I'd be hard-pressed to name any Confederates who were analogues to actual Nazis (as opposed to filling the same positions in the government). My best friend and I both read the series as each book came out, and well before the start of World War II we correctly predicted a lot of what was going to happen.

Well Featherstone is the Hitler analogue, but rather different in personality; Saul Goldman sort of resembled Goebels, Clarence Potter could be a Doenitz analogue. Overall there isn't a great match up.

I quite enjoy the 'Ring of Fire' series by Eric Flint and several co-authors. A town from the current day is whisked back to 1632 Europe and creates an alternate history. Just avoid the Virginia DeMarce collaborations.

I, too, like the Eric Flint 1632 series.

Me three. Though is this AH? Like Guns of the South it's more about the creation of a new world. More of the Island in the Sea of Time.

I also like The Peshawar Lancers by S.M. Stirling. And the Belisarius series^WP by Eric Flint and David Drake is another favorite (published by Baen Books).

I liked the Peshwar Lancers but like much of Stirling's work his background annoyed me for its lack of realism.

Harry Turtledove

There is also a hefty anthology http://www.amazon.com/The-Mammoth-Book-Alternate-Histories/dp/0762438428

I have it. Sideways in Crime is good too

Which I have read - was not to bad. Across the bottom of the Amazon page are a list of books I have not read.

Also a lot of steam punk does alternative Victorian history, if you want some recommendations there - let me know

I'm not much of a steampunk fan, except in a fairly realistic historical development form.
Uchronia is probably the best single reference for AH books, currently I have over a thousand.

I liked Scott Westerfeld's "Leviathan" which is about the WWI, but fought between the Clankers (Austria, Germany) and the Darwinists (England, France). The former have giant robots and rely on machinery, whereas the latter have evolved animals to serve them in sometimes ingenious ways.

The Darwinists have a gigantic whale-blimp which is kept flying by special hydrogen-producing bacteria in its stomach. Communication between the command centre and the rest of the blimp are by voice-imitating parrots, and their main weapon is a swarm of bats with small metal parts in their stomachs, which will tear through enemy aircraft.

I started it but couldn't get into it.

 

[Mojo]

Ward Moore: Bring the Jubilee
Kim Stanley Robinson: The Years of Rice and Salt
Keith Roberts: Pavane

 

[catsmate]

Ward Moore: Bring the Jubilee
Kim Stanley Robinson: The Years of Rice and Salt
Keith Roberts: Pavane

Ah Pavane, I'd forgotten that one. I don't rate it as highly as many, certainly not " the finest of all 'alternate histories" as the Cambridge guide descibes it but damn good, if unlikely.
Bring the Jubilee I read many years ago, I found Moore's portrayal of the USA rather silly.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think all conspiracy theories are alternative histories.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

I really liked "Newton's Cannon" By Greg Keyes, but I read it many years ago, and I read it in Dutch, so I don't know ho good it really was.

It's based on the idea that many of the early scientific ideas which are now discarded were true. Really cool. Floating ships and a really cool telegraph system that didn't use electricity, but some ethereal method (IIRC).

 

[joolz]

For example, Robert Harris' Fatherland was good (or at least, I enjoyed it but read it about fifteen years ago or more...)

This ^.

It was a spur-of-the-moment airport purchase ages ago. Just wanted extra reading for a long flight and I was surprised to enjoy it so much as I hadn't read the author before or heard about the book.

I'm probably more into future history, a la Heinlein, than alternate history, but I don't seek to avoid the latter.

 

[crimresearch]

I enjoyed Benjamin King's 'Anderson' series... (A Bullet for Stonewall, A Bullet for Lincoln, A Bullet for Custer)

 

[Marduk]

Making history by Stephen fry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_History_(novel)
a professor invents limited capability time travel, and drops a male contraceptive pill into a well that Hitlers father drinks from

without a maniac in charge the third Reich is worse than ever, it has its funny moments too, like when the Nazi's nuke Moscow in 1938, I'm still trying to work out why that was funny though, Stephen Fry, comedy genius

along the same lines in that era you have Fatherland mentioned by Angysoba in post 6, which is evert bit as good as he remembers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)
and
SS-GB by Len Deighton, which details what life in Britain would have been like under the Nazis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-GB

 

[Astrodude]

The CSA mockumentary was very well done.

 

[crimresearch]

The CSA mockumentary was very well done.

That was great, got to meet Kevin Wilmott a year ago at a screening, and he had some interesting comments about the mainstream media refusing to touch it.