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Air displacement

Orphia Nay

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A question that was asked at another forum that I thought I might get a straight answer (and explanation) for here:

If you have two identical semi trucks driving down the road.
One has no load. One has a very heavy load.
Will the heavy load displace more air than the truck with no load?
 
A question that was asked at another forum that I thought I might get a straight answer (and explanation) for here:

If you have two identical semi trucks driving down the road.
One has no load. One has a very heavy load.
Will the heavy load displace more air than the truck with no load?

Since you state that the trucks are moving, then by "displace" I assume you mean "move out of the way". All else being equal, the heavily loaded truck will probably move slightly less air. The trailer will ride lower, resulting in less drag.
 
A question that was asked at another forum that I thought I might get a straight answer (and explanation) for here:

If you have two identical semi trucks driving down the road.
One has no load. One has a very heavy load.
Will the heavy load displace more air than the truck with no load?

Not if it's airtight I wouldn't imagine.
 
Well, if they're both stopped at a truck stop, they'll both displace the same amount of air because they have equal volumes. After that, I'll go with that riding lower answer above.
 
Since you state that the trucks are moving, then by "displace" I assume you mean "move out of the way". All else being equal, the heavily loaded truck will probably move slightly less air. The trailer will ride lower, resulting in less drag.

Thanks, Modified (and baron and Loss Leader). That makes sense.
 
Well, maybe not. The lower truck might create an airspace that "looks" more solid to the ambient, stagnant air. In which case it might displace more.

Note: Pure speculation. YMMV
 
Well, if they're both stopped at a truck stop, they'll both displace the same amount of air because they have equal volumes. After that, I'll go with that riding lower answer above.
I guess the truck with the load will have its tires compressed more.
 
This is not a physics question! They should be perfectly spherical trucks traveling on a frictionless surface in a vacuum! Come back when you can ask a proper question!

;)
 
Imagine a brick and an empty box the size of a brick. In static or in motion both displace the same exterior air volume. In motion however the brick, having greater mass, will be more impervious to gusts and turbulent airflow than the empty box. THis means that the "path" from point A to B will be slightly longer for the box than the brick, as it weaves and bobs about in turbulent air. So in that regard the box would have "displaced" more air along an identical path... if I understand your question.
 
Skeptical or presumptuous?

The one with the load would consume more fuel. As it would require more energy to get to speed. Plus what the others have said.

Really? What about downhill travel, particularly on a grade just slightly less than the "angle of repose" for the unloaded vehicle? The resistance to rolling due to bearing friction and tire deformation would likely increase less than linearly with load, while the tangential component of weight would increase linearly; a sufficiently loaded truck would roll for "free" (gravity's a wonderful thing), the unloaded truck would need engine assist.

Never mind the "angle of repose"... going downhill the heavier vehicle converts more potential energy to kinetic energy (and thermal via friction work), enabling greater terminal speed.

Of course, the heavier load will have to acquire more kinetic energy at speed that will have to come from somewhere (e.g. gravitational potential), but it's by no means certain that both vehicles will transform their energy "inputs" to kinetic energy in the same proportions. For example, bearing spindles may be less precisely aligned and offer more resistance unloaded than when the vehicle is flexed under its design load. In such a case the heavier vehicle could accelerate faster and/or achieve greater speed than a lighter vehicle, even on level ground; a bigger proportion of the lighter vehicle's energy input could be wasted.

Because horizontal travel and particulars of design (beyond "identical semi trucks") aren't specified in the original query; solutions based on such presumptions may require qualification. As an amazing woman (my first collegiate professor of the calculus) was fond of saying: "If you change the problem, you're probably gonna change the answer."

;) No, I don't think these nits I pick are of any practical significance to the spirits of the response or original query. It's just that IMHO recognition of details where devils may lurk is appropriate grist for this forum's mill.
 
Not quite specific enough

A question that was asked at another forum that I thought I might get a straight answer (and explanation) for here:

If you have two identical semi trucks driving down the road.
One has no load. One has a very heavy load.
Will the heavy load displace more air than the truck with no load?

IMO these sorts of gross generalization questions are better unasked than answered. Sorry (sort of) to be pedantic, but the "right" answer depends on details the question doesn't provide...

What do you mean by "identical semi trucks driving down the road"? Do you mean vehicles of identical, typical semi-tractor-trailer construction traveling however they each travel under their particular conditions of load and environment? The typical rig is far from streamlined, especially at the rear. As the vehicles move through the air, vortices will be shed alternately from each side and impose cyclic forces that would tend to rock the trailer from side to side (top and bottom too, for that matter). Whether and how much that causes the rig to roll, yaw, and pitch as it travels will depend on the details of the supension as well as on the particular amount and placement of load. There's not enough specification in the query to determine whether the heavier or lighter rig will wobble more and sweep a larger volume; my expectation, however, is that the suspension will be designed to ride more stably when bearing its design load than when unloaded.

Or do you also mean the details of the vehicles' motions are identical in every respect? Depending what you mean by "displace", that would reduce problem to the almost trivial determination of which vehicle is volumetrically larger or projects the most area in the direction of motion. The loaded rig will be volumetrically slightly smaller than the unloaded rig due to elastic compression of its structural members and compression of the air in its tires, though those effects will be on the order of parts per million. The greater effect will probably be a combination of shock-absorber piston travel and leaf-spring deformation lowering the trailer to present a smaller area in the direction of travel. That might be a few inches difference between empty and fully loaded... but the bottom of the tractor must lower the same amount as the top of the front of the trailer, so the net reduction is only the amount by which the tractor's wheels are withdrawn into the fender wells.

What's the "load"? Is it in the truck , something like a really really fat driver or cargo inside an enclosed trailer? Is it on the truck, like cargo sitting atop flatbed trailer? If it's on the truck, does air "displaced by the load" count? Is it some idealized load force acting on the vehicle but not considered as a separate physical entity for purposes of this problem?

How is the load distributed on the vehicle; where is its center of gravity, what are its moments of inertia? These details matter how applied load changes the projected area of the vehicle, and they're probably very important to the vehicles' roll/pitch/yaw/bounce behavior if we don't constrain them to motion identical in all respects.

How much is enough to be considered "more"?

What do you mean by "displace... air"? The space that would be occupied by air but for the vehicle and its cargo? In that case motion doesn't come into play (relativistic effects aside ;) ). The loaded vehicle displaces less air because its structural members, shocks, and tire air are compressed to bear the load, but the effect is only a few parts per million. If the load is "real" and either external or we consider its displacement of air from the interior of the trailer, the vehicle+load displaces more air, dominated by the density of the load itself.

Do you mean the volume swept by the moving vehicle's bounding surfaces over corresponding intervals of time? The total mass of air disturbed by the vehicles' passage at a particular speed through particular environmental conditions (and what counts as "disturbed")? Again, this depends strongly on whether we permit the vehicles to move "appropriately" for their load or constrain them to motion identical in detail; the former is unknowable in the general case, and the latter is hardly worth knowing (IMO).

We've even got problems if we try to guess the "spirit" of the assertion, which might be something along the lines of whether the loaded or unloaded truck is more fuel-efficient. I'd be very surprised if the loaded truck went as far on a given charge of fuel, but it's certainly more efficient in terms of delivering payload rather than just truck.

OK, so I rant a bit :)
 
You could simplify all that by presupposing it wasn't moving. Let's say it wasn't. Answer is no :)
 
Perhaps I am going down the wrong path here, but if you put each truck in a wind tunnel and blew wind against each one, I imagine that the differences would be negligible if not measurably small.
 
Just a note: It was not "my" question - as I stated, it was posted in another (rather wooish) forum. It generated quite a discussion there, and I thought it might be interesting to post here.

Also, the trucks are "driving down the road".

Perhaps I am going down the wrong path here, but if you put each truck in a wind tunnel and blew wind against each one, I imagine that the differences would be negligible if not measurably small.

Yes, even if the heavy truck rides lower, I think the difference in air displacement would definitely be negligible, or perhaps extremely slight.

There's not enough specification in the query to determine whether the heavier or lighter rig will wobble more and sweep a larger volume; my expectation, however, is that the suspension will be designed to ride more stably when bearing its design load than when unloaded.

My thoughts as well. The question states that the trucks are identical. Does that mean that their suspension is fixed and the trailer heights are the same? There is no answer, I'm afraid.

Thanks, all.
 
Perhaps I am going down the wrong path here, but if you put each truck in a wind tunnel and blew wind against each one, I imagine that the differences would be negligible if not measurably small.

I used to have a car with an "instantaneous" gas mileage meter. Heavily loaded, it got about 5% better gas mileage on the freeway than unloaded. Of course, a truck will not have as much change in ride height, and ground effects would not be as significant as for a car.
 
I used to have a car with an "instantaneous" gas mileage meter. Heavily loaded, it got about 5% better gas mileage on the freeway than unloaded. Of course, a truck will not have as much change in ride height, and ground effects would not be as significant as for a car.

I believe the mileage between a heavily loaded truck and an unloaded truck would be very significant. I was suggesting that the amount of air displaced by both trucks going down the road at the same speed is virtually the same.
 
I believe the mileage between a heavily loaded truck and an unloaded truck would be very significant. I was suggesting that the amount of air displaced by both trucks going down the road at the same speed is virtually the same.

My car got better mileage when loaded. I was saying that the relative effects of load on ride height and ride height on drag would be less for a truck.
 
The 'free lunch' theory, lives!

Not free. Loaded mileage at low speeds and under acceleration would be worse, and a car riding lower has a greater chance of bottoming out or hitting junk in the road. And of course, lowering the suspension to the same level when unloaded would result in even better freeway mileage.
 

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