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AGW extremists are dangerous

Hallo Alfie

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I raise this partly in respone to my own (poor) behaviour in another thread and as an offer of explanation of some attitudes.

Leaving aside that behaviour for the moment, I have so far been accused of being ignorant on certain matters (true perhaps), unable to grasp scientific concepts (in all probability also true) and therefore my opinion is irrelevant.

Those that make the accustions assume I am some sort of denier (and perhaps I am) however they have no actual knowledge of that save for their own paranoia. My position on AWG, the political spectrum (left or right) or any other matter frankly are largely irrelevant. The fact is that any leanings on most issues are only just to the left, or just right depending on the topic.


Now here's the rub.

Those that fall into the extreme end of any debate are the one's with whom I have genuine concern -history is littered with the tragedies brought about by these so called well meaning zealots. "The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions". Those who think they kow better than I (and the population in general) and force their beliefs and ideologies onto others often violently and single mindedly.
Hitler was one - extreme right.
Stalin another - extreme left.
Both extremist, zealots and alarmsts and both responible for the deaths of millions and millions.
Both very sick, extremely paranoid and "right".

One fellow forum member (and self proclaimed activist) who is pro AWG has suggested he is in the 1% of humanity that undertstands the science and does the work. Should we therefore assume that we should all bow to this superior being and allow him steer the course of humanity. Of course not. Nor should we allow the person at the other end of the spectrum who is equally certain he is right lead the way either. They are both dangerous.

Those in the GW (AGW) debate that alarm me (pun intended) are those on the extremes of the spectrum (same in politics, religion and any other emotive issue). They use anger, violence, threats, sneer, personal attacks, smear, innuendo etc etc against any and all who don't follow their way of thinking (including those that do in fact lean their way but not far enough). Both ends are responsible for misinformation and outright lies and avoidance in defence of their position and the whole debate then becomes clouded with same. Many defend their action privately as "any means to a justifable end" or "they did it so we should/can do it".

Both ends claim they are "right" and nothing and no one elses opinions matter -presumably they have the ultimate in an extreme answer also, just as Hitler and Stalin (and others) had to theirs. The trouble is, a lot of the time we don't know what these solutions are.

These self appointed protectors of humanity and rightiousness for mine are the real dangers to humanity - more dangerous perhaps than any GW threat.


Now before you start throwing a barrage of technical information at me for my edification; I am not the one who needs convincing that AWG is real, threatenening or the ramifications imminent. There are plenty of experts that dispute these claims and while there is debate among the professionals in their various field I will continue to listen to both sides until there is some sort of concurrence. To me that seems a fairly reasonable stand point and to rush willy-nilly into a solution that may do more harm than good seems reckless.

I claim as my right as an intelligent, articulate and caring human being; parent, husband, tax payer and resident; a member of the global community to make my own decision. My opinion is as relevant as eveyone elses. I choose to make my decions, in my own time, without the aggressive and self-rightious ravings of those on the extreme.
 
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Man, this just came up in another thread. Is this new? This whole mistrust of experts, the whole "I'm a nice guy, so my opinion on climate is just as valid as someone who is actually educated on the issue and spends his entire life studying it."

That's insane. Like medically insane. I just came from a thread where Wangler basically dismisses the conclusion of several thousand climate scientists based on some "back of the envelope" calculations he did. You know, stuff that these guys who do nothing but study it somehow missed.

Where does this attitude come from? It's kind of terrifying.
 
As long as you understand that even with all your rights intact, you're likely still wrong...

My gripe with AGW is that its been a massive derail from something on which we were gaining traction, and which is an easier sell to the unwashed masses, namely the eevuls of pollution. Once AGW came along, there was a mass of political and scientific hot air expelled, a bunch of money got sidetracked away from practical stuff to egg-headed investigations which today have resulted in not one iota of real change anywhere, and no one can tell if we can make a difference or if we're just on a climate change boat ride to hell and beyond...

I mean, I don't think there is much question that climate is changing, nothing stays the same forever....

At least if we'd plugged along on pollution, we'd have a clean-looking coffin instead of a smelly grease-ball...

meh, what do I know, I'm one of those too ignorant to grasp the whole GW/AGW thingy anyhow... But I can see that if you follow the caesh, there is way more caesh in AGW than GW...
 
Wow. This time the OP Godwined itself.

I'd never heard of that before (Godwined). Good point - too cliched perhaps. Maybe McCarthy, white supremists or someone along the political right would have been a better example for you. It does not however remove anything from the main thrust of my argument does it?
 
Man, this just came up in another thread. Is this new? This whole mistrust of experts, the whole "I'm a nice guy, so my opinion on climate is just as valid as someone who is actually educated on the issue and spends his entire life studying it."



That's a bit like saying those who don't study politics should not be allowed to vote.
 
I agree with the OP, the whole AGW has become a religion and I think we should question that. It doesn't mean we deny anythng but the blind obedience of the masses.
 
It's like saying those who have never been to law school shouldn't give legal advice.
 
no its saying you have a right to defend yourself in court without a degree in law.
 
It's like saying those who have never been to law school shouldn't give legal advice.

Not at all. It's more like going to one lawyer, listening and then going to another and getting a different opinion. I then make up my mind.
 
But going by your logic...

How do you manage to go by my logic if I only made an assertion?

Lets assume, I don't study politics. I am however allowed to listen to the leaders and scolars in the fields and after having done so, cast my vote/make up my own mind.

Right?

Yes, and irrelevant.

How on earth is GW any different? I isten to the experts on both sides and then... wow! make up my own mind

Sorry, it's science... Your mind is irrelevant, since you don't get to vote on the facts. You just add your ignorant voice to the scores of ignorant voices bleating AGW denial talking points.

As David said, you don't have a right to give legal advice if you're not a lawyer, or medical advice if you're not a MD. You don't have the right to calculate loads on a building if you're not an engineer, or to fly a plane if you're not a pilot.

But why am I bothering...
 
And yet you have the right to tell me I dont have a right to make my own decision?

I assume you vote (or have the right to)? I assume you listen to all sides.

Why deprive me of that entitlement?

As I said, there are plenty of sceptics within the scientific community. Why should I just listen to one side of the debate?
 
Megalodon,
There is no dispute the truth exists regardless of opinion, but that means anyones. I respect that most posters know more about this subject than I do but get concerned about the vitriol towards anyone who questions canon.
 
And yet you have the right to tell me I dont have a right to make my own decision?

I assume you vote (or have the right to)? I assume you listen to all sides.

Why deprive me of that entitlement?

As I said, there are plenty of sceptics within the scientific community. Why should I just listen to one side of the debate?

Again:

Science is not Politics. You do not get a vote in Science. You can make your own mind, but it's irrelevant for the subject your making your mind about. The only way you can affect the subject is politically, by joining the ignorance of others in a conjoined effort to avoid reality.

Good luck with that...
 
How do you manage to go by my logic if I only made an assertion?



Yes, and irrelevant.



Sorry, it's science... Your mind is irrelevant, since you don't get to vote on the facts. You just add your ignorant voice to the scores of ignorant voices bleating AGW denial talking points.

As David said, you don't have a right to give legal advice if you're not a lawyer, or medical advice if you're not a MD. You don't have the right to calculate loads on a building if you're not an engineer, or to fly a plane if you're not a pilot.

But why am I bothering...



Additionally and again using your logic, the scientists should be running the nations, not the politicians: Given ourworld leaders listen to precicely the same people I do, draw their own conclusions and make their own decision. I assume they are no more (for the most part) qualified than I am.

So, who should be making the decisions and how should we set that up?
 
Megalodon,
There is no dispute the truth exists regardless of opinion, but that means anyones. I respect that most posters know more about this subject than I do but get concerned about the vitriol towards anyone who questions canon.

There is no canon to question. There's data, there's specialists actively researching and publishing on the subject, and there's political hacks with websites. The vitriol you perceive is mainly directed at those who have been exposed as abject liars in this forum for years.

There is, of course, the ridicule dispensed to those who arrive with the same old discredited canards, but that's par for the course in an internet fora, and not nearly as bad in these as in most.
 
Additionally and again using your logic, the scientists should be running the nations, not the politicians: Given ourworld leaders listen to precicely the same people I do, draw their own conclusions and make their own decision. I assume they are no more (for the most part) qualified than I am.

You got to this gem from using "my logic"? Really? It seems more like you just dug deep in your bag of stupid.

So, who should be making the decisions and how should we set that up?

It's your twisted fantasy, so you can answer it yourself...
 

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