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Activist Atheist divided regarding criticism of Islam

Carn

Graduate Poster
C
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From my impression of many activist atheists (meaning actively engaged in political and/or philosophical debates/struggles) are fine with anything goes against many religions, especially Christianity.

For example, there were some atheists who publically implied that the god of the bible would have to considered as an immoral monster, if he existed. Cannot remember any atheist had much problem with that statement, which for Christians might sound somewhat unfriendly and rude.


And yet, i have the impression that if some atheist would in a similar way attack the god of the koran, that other atheists would have a problem with that (and might even use the termn "Islamophobia", which would irriate my from atheists; i mean being afraid of billions of people at least according to their official declarations putting life and death decisions in the hands of invisible pink unicorns and their words of wisdom or whatever is not necessarily "phobic" but might be pretty rational).

Is that only my false impression or is there actually such a divide among atheists regarding harsh criticism of Islam?
 
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Carn said:
From my impression of many activist atheists (meaning actively engaged in political and/or philosophical debates/struggles) are fine with anything goes against many religions, especially Christianity.

For example, there were some atheists who publically implied that the god of the bible would have to considered as an immoral monster, if he existed. Cannot remember any atheist had much problem with that statement, which for Christians might sound somewhat unfriendly and rude.


And yet, i have the impression that if some atheist would in a similar way attack the god of the koran, that other atheists would have a problem with that (and might even use the termn "Islamophobia", which would irriate my from atheists; i mean being afraid of billions of people at least according to their official declarations putting life and death decisions in the hands of invisible pink unicorns and their words of wisdom or whatever is not necessarily "phobic" but might be pretty rational).

Is that only my false impression or is there actually such a divide among atheists regarding harsh criticism of Islam?
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Data and evidence?
Certainly Facebook atheist pages slam islam along with xianity
 
Why do you have the impression that atheists are against attacking Islam and the Koran?

I can accept that more effort is put towards taking down Christianity and the Bible. In the Anglosphere/Western world we're more likely to deal with Christians. I'd bet all of us in North America/UK/Australia have Christian friends and family, and have had Christians come to our door trying to convert us. Many of our politicians base their positions on Christian dogma. We're more likely to have to deal with Christianity, face it in our day to day lives, so we take more interest in what is most likely to affect us. I don't know if the same can be said about Islam.

Also, there's a Skeptic's Annotated Koran, done by the same people who do the Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
 
The only truths worth heeding enforce themselves, need no advocates to prosper, and reveal themselves in the same way to anyone caring to look (science!). The rest is freaking dangerous if you call it "truth," and even science prefers something less pompous. So when a hyper-enforcing, heavy-handed, violent brain fart comes along waving a Big Truth flag, it gets all the respect it truly deserves.
 
Carn said:
Is that only my false impression or is there actually such a divide among atheists regarding harsh criticism of Islam?
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It's your false impression. There is actually such a divide among atheists (all of society, really) regarding harsh criticism of Muslims, not Islam itself. Just because there's a lot of hateful crap in the religion doesn't mean its adherents are automatically bad people, or undeserving of basic human rights.
 
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Oh for pity's sake, could the OP be any more full of it? Now atheists are supposedly Islam promoters?

Faux Christian persecution, anyone?
 
Beelzebuddy said:
There is actually such a divide among atheists (all of society, really) regarding harsh criticism of Muslims, not Islam itself.
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Is there someone who offers in public harsh criticism of Islam and itself and is not called an islamophobic?

For example Dawkins:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Richard_Dawkins#Islam
"Dawkins has also been critical of extreme Islam, while also indicating he has no great issue with the adherents of moderate Islam. Due to his views on Islamic extremism, Dawkins declared that "Islam is the greatest force for evil in the world today".[81][82] In response, some commentators have accused Dawkins of Islamophobia."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...arris-face-islamophobia-backlash-8570580.html
"But now Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are on the receiving end of stinging criticism from fellow liberal non-believers who say their particular brand of atheism has swung from being a scientifically rigorous attack on all religions to a populist and crude hatred of Islam."

failed at offering a harsh public criticism of Islam without getting called islamophobic by "non-believers" so supposedly atheists.

Therefore my question, if there is someone who managed what you ask for, namely offering harsh criticism of Islam with nobody thinking it is harsh criticism of Muslims.

I cannot think of anyone.
 
rustypouch said:
Why do you have the impression that atheists are against attacking Islam and the Koran?
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E.g. Dawkins.

For me it seems he was so to say celebrated for all-out attacks against Christianity under the general header of criticism against religion in general; but when he goes for an all-out attack against Islam in similar ways he gets called islamophobic.

And my impression is that his motive and methods are in both cases so similar that this is not explainable by him doing much different.

As slight indication i offer wiki entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Richard_Dawkins#Views_on_religion

The entry of Christianity has no info of anyone calling him out for being "christianophobic" or whatever while the entry on Islam notes several instances in which Dawkins got counterfire for his approach regarding Islam.

Either Dawkins somehow acted differently in his criticism of Islam than Christianity or some people act differently to criticism of Islam than Christianity or a combination of the two.

rustypouch said:
Also, there's a Skeptic's Annotated Koran, done by the same people who do the Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
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I know. I do not suggest there aren't atheist dishing out against Islam like they dish out against Christianity.

Just that there are some other atheists who seem to be fine with the latter but not fine with the former.
 
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Dawkins and Harris have specific attitudes in contexts associated with Muslims that they don't seem to have about Christians. Harris has a "Problem with Islam" and found himself having to retract his previous views on torture in this regard. People are tortured, not theologies, however absurd they may be.

Here is Dawkins' response to the desecration with bacon of a mosque in Edinburgh, perpetrated by fascists, for the purpose not of exercising a human right to festoon public buildings with bacon, but to cause distress to a section of the population. I am convinced that if the target had been a synagogue Dawkins would rightly have been more sympathetic to the outraged feelings of its congregation.

Intellectual attacks on the theology or irrationality of the religions involved, however valid, are not the point here. Dawkins seems to be operating outside the (very wide) range of his area of competence.
 
I realize that with Dawkins this issue borders on the ridiculous:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...-letter-to-the-people-who-canceled-his-event/

"If you had consulted me, or if you had done even rudimentary fact-checking, you would have concluded that I have never used abusive speech against Islam. I have called IslamISM “vile” but surely you, of all people, understand that Islamism is not the same as Islam.

...

I am known as a frequent critic of Christianity and have never been de-platformed for that.
..."

In the SAME letter Dawkins readily admits his fame as frequent critic of Christianity, not of Christianism, fundamentalist Christianity, but as a critic of the whole entire thing unter that label;

and on the other hand

tries to defend himself by implying he only critized islamism but - heaven forbid - not Islam.

I mean realy?

That guy is supposedly militant atheist; he should not respond to a charge of "you said something abusive about Islam" with I-only-critized-Islamism-defense, but something like "Exactly what i intended, religions in general are ... [negatives] ... and Islam especially is ... [negatives] ...; how the heck did you idiots think i got the title of being a "militant atheist"? I will always say all abusive things any religion as an intelectual concept deserves."

But apparently he thinks it is necessary to avoid the impression, he said something abusive about Islam.

What madness, a militant atheist concerned about being accused of saying something abusive about a specific religion.

(And yes, that radio station "accused" him for saying abusive things about Islam, not for saying abusive things about Muslims.)
 
I have a lot of problems with tone deaf attacks on Christianity and Islam alike. But the truly vicious and ignorant ones are more commonly flung against Islam. The fact that Muslims in Western society are in a vulnerable position doesn't help.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
There is a difference between criticism and abuse.
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Please elaborate on the difference between legitimate criticism of islam and illegtimate abuse of islam; or better give examples of legitimate criticism of islam.
 
Islam is a ridiculous religion. However, Christianity is just as ridiculous. Also, Christians have more influence in the USA than Muslims do. This is why it may be perceived that atheists attack Christianity more often, it might be true, but only because Christianity is more pervasive in America.
 
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Carn said:
Is that only my false impression or is there actually such a divide among atheists regarding harsh criticism of Islam?
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I think that it's an artifact of living in the Christian west. Some 70% of Americans are Christian while less than 1% are Muslim. It would make sense that most atheists are christian by birth and, thus, are best suited to criticize Christianity.

I'm sure that in Muslim majority nations, the debate is between Islam and atheism with very little thought given to Christianity.
 
Loss Leader said:
I'm sure that in Muslim majority nations, the debate is between Islam and atheism with very little thought given to Christianity.
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Any example of atheists living in Muslim majority nation and publically critizising Islam from an explizit atheistic position?

I fear, that the number of atheist publically critizing Islam has no positive correlation with the percentage of population being Muslim.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Islam is a ridiculous religion. However, Christianity is just as ridiculous. Also, Christians have more influence in the USA than Muslims do. This is why it may be perceived that atheists attack Christianity more often, it might be true, but only because Christianity is more pervasive in America.
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Issue would not be, that one is critized more, but that critique of Islam or certain critique of Islam is off limits for some atheists although they have nothing against similar critique of Christianity.
 
Craig B said:
Dawkins and Harris have specific attitudes in contexts associated with Muslims that they don't seem to have about Christians.
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Evidence?
Craig B said:
Harris has a "Problem with Islam"
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No, such a quote can in itself never be evidence, that Harris has specific attitudes towards Muslims; it might be evidence him having specific attitudes regarding Islam.
Craig B said:
and found himself having to retract his previous views on torture in this regard. People are tortured, not theologies, however absurd they may be.
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And?

But if you talk about Harris, here something Harris said:
https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-controversy
"Because I am concerned about the logical and behavioral consequences of specific beliefs, I do not treat all religions the same. Not all religious doctrines are mistaken to the same degree, intellectually or ethically, and it is dishonest and ultimately dangerous to pretend otherwise. People in every tradition can be seen making the same errors, of course—e.g. relying on faith instead of evidence in matters of great personal and public concern—but the doctrines and authorities in which they place their faith run the gamut from the quaint to the psychopathic."

Maybe his difference in attitude regarding Islam/Christianity is due to him thinking that Islam's doctrines "score" far more points for "psychopathic" than christian doctrine.

Cannot see why any atheist would consider such an attitude in general wrong, instead of just disagreeing with Harris which religion is more "psychopathic".

Craig B said:
Here is Dawkins' response to the desecration with bacon of a mosque in Edinburgh, perpetrated by fascists, for the purpose not of exercising a human right to festoon public buildings with bacon, but to cause distress to a section of the population. I am convinced that if the target had been a synagogue Dawkins would rightly have been more sympathetic to the outraged feelings of its congregation.
Click to expand...

And?

I find 9months actual actual prison for an 18-year old guilty of bacon attacks both in case of mosque and synagoge to be excessive. What would she get for bashing in the door and spraying some unfriendly words on the interior? 5 years? Or 7 years, which is one can get in the same region for attempted murder?
 
Carn said:
Any example of atheists living in Muslim majority nation and publically critizising Islam from an explizit atheistic position?
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I don't think we would have access to such information. First, those people would be communicating to Muslims in a Muslim world. Western nations just don't have access to that. How many Muslim-world philosophers, political scientists, doctors or physicists can any given American name? I would venture none - not because no such people exist, but because their work is in a foreign language meant for foreign consumption.

Then, obviously, you have the problem of fundamentalist Muslim governments suppressing any sort of dissent. I don't think you're going to find many outspoken critics of Islam in nations where they will kill you for being an outspoken critic of Islam.
 
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