Accupuncture for Dogs? WTF?

[JoeyDonuts]

Last week a station in my area ran a piece on a local vet who gives accupuncture to dogs.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=11658567

If you watch the video (it's somewhere on the site) you'll notice one of the pets yelp in pain when a needle is inserted. And of course, the smiling happy faces of the owners as they see how happy the dog is. (Obviously, the fact that it's had attention from multiple people lavished on it during the procedure couldn't have anything to do with it.)

There's a discussion thread for the story. I'm doing my level best to fly the flag of reason in that thread, but as you'll see I'm quite outnumbered.

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/kotv/T53FPDO7VB8VR8OPG#comments

Here's a great response from that thread.

If you have never received this type of treatment, how can you verify its ability to cure health problems?

*facepalm*

 

[Dogdoctor]

http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf
Here is a powerpoint presentation that goes over the philosophical and scientific problems of acupuncture. It's a little outdated perhaps since the veterinarian who created it died a few years ago. It still pretty good.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet.swf
Here is a powerpoint presentation that goes over the philosophical and scientific problems of acupuncture. It's a little outdated perhaps since the veterinarian who created it died a few years ago. It still pretty good.

Thank you for that.

Highly revealing.

I'm poring through her website now to find the claimed "lineage" or legitimacy of her accupunture training.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I can't really find where she received her training and certification from.

What's apparent is that she claims to have been an emergency veterinary technician who became disillusioned with telling pet owners "that's all we can do."

The dog cited in the story is cited as being "unable to walk without accupuncture."

Is it just me or does that sound like the perfect way to keep someone coming back?

ETA: I'm wondering whether or not I should pursue this further. Or even how I would go about it.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I had a "doctor" at the VA try acupuncture on me one time. He asked me how it felt and I said, "faith healing doesn't work on someone with no faith in the process."

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I suspect I am receiving fire support from another JREFer.



It's starting to get good. I knew it was only a matter of time until someone decided to start throwing Hebrews 11:1 around.

 

[duras]

I have a friend who is a vet tech and she insists that acupuncture for dogs works. She says there's pain relief for weeks after they use acupuncture.

I'm not sure it has been done (who would waste their time?) but it would be interesting to give one set of dogs acupuncture, the other set sham acupuncture, and then have a blinded evaluator write down how much pain/distress each of the dogs was in. It would also have to be a decent enough sample size to give us a 95% CI. That's really the only good way to test the pet acupuncture claim.

I really think it's a case of the pet owners and techs remembering only the times it worked, and seeing certain behaviors differently when they know it got acupuncture.

 

[alfaniner]

I recently saw a Dog Whisperer where Cesar recommended acupuncture for a dog. I actually gasped in shock. Of course they didn't show that portion.

 

[billw]

Some of our local veterinarians also advertise homeopathy and chiropractic services for pets - in case your cat gets out of adjustment, I guess.

Of course this is in Southern California where teh woo is strong...

 

[JoeyDonuts]

The woo has been getting stronger in Oklahoma of late.

Oddly enough, you'd think these kinds of things would typically be at odds with Fundie Christianity.

I think, however, because of the current political climate, there's an odd sense of "sticking it to the man" by using therapies that aren't controlled by the illegitimate Kenyan-born and controlled Jew healthcare industry.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I have a friend who is a vet tech and she insists that acupuncture for dogs works. She says there's pain relief for weeks after they use acupuncture.

Well, there's problem number one. Pain is subjective and self-reported in humans. How in the hell are you going to get a dog to tell you on a scale of one to ten? And even that's not accurate, not even in humans.

I think your friend, like all vet techs, are happy about getting results, or what really really seem like results and think less about how they got there. Everybody wants miracles, right?

Plus, a vet tech isn't necessarily a veterinary doctor, correct? And would be expected to have far less in the way of scientific education?

 

[pgwenthold]

Well, there's problem number one. Pain is subjective and self-reported in humans. How in the hell are you going to get a dog to tell you on a scale of one to ten? And even that's not accurate, not even in humans.

I think your friend, like all vet techs, are happy about getting results, or what really really seem like results and think less about how they got there. Everybody wants miracles, right?

Plus, a vet tech isn't necessarily a veterinary doctor, correct? And would be expected to have far less in the way of scientific education?

Don't think for a second that actual vets don't fall for this crap, too. I was at the AVMA conference last summer and there were ay least three booths in the expo that were selling accupuncture garbage.

 

[ejk]

One of the doctors at the vet I go to offers animal acupuncture. They have signs up in the waiting room promoting it, including a Q&A that asks whether there is evidence it works. Answer -- people who promote it are hoping for more tests. Argh!

I like the vet I use a lot, but having that stuff posted out front really makes me question their judgment. I feel odd saying something when my doctor hasn't suggested anything woo-ish for my beasts, but it's tempting.

And duras, re: the sort of test you propose, when you have people spending money on it that could be used for treatments that actually work, or for other purposes, maybe it's not such a waste of time. Of course, that assumes the proponents would accept negative results and not just convince themselves it works no matter what the evidence shows.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Don't think for a second that actual vets don't fall for this crap, too. I was at the AVMA conference last summer and there were ay least three booths in the expo that were selling accupuncture garbage.

Oddly for a while I was bombarded by altmed stuff in the mail and in journals but that has calmed down a lot. I was so alarmed I was looking for groups of other vets who shared my concern and ran across Randi's site and emailed him and he put me in touch with a group. Vets can fall for all the same stuff everyone else does.