"Abusing" bad guys = no prob, right?

[varwoche]

For the benefit of those who discount the "abuse" of prisoners because, what the hell, they're bad guys after all...
article

Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested "by mistake,' according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday.

 

[Grammatron]

Getting arrested is abuse now?

 

[Bjorn]

Getting arrested is abuse now?

Grammatron, some people (also on this board) have aired attitudes like 'so we abused those prisoners, but they all tried to kill us, so what's the big deal'.

I wouldn't buy that argument anyhow - but if most of the prisoners are 'ordinary' Iraqis that have been rounded up and are spending some time in prison before they are set free, the argument becomes even more silly.

As far as I have seen, people in the know agree with the claim that most prisoners are 'innocent', e.g. the 'coalition intelligence officers' mentioned in the article.

 

[Grammatron]

Grammatron, some people (also on this board) have aired attitudes like 'so we abused those prisoners, but they all tried to kill us, so what's the big deal'.

I wouldn't buy that argument anyhow - but if most of the prisoners are 'ordinary' Iraqis that have been rounded up and are spending some time in prison before they are set free, the argument becomes even more silly.

As far as I have seen, people in the know agree with the claim that most prisoners are 'innocent', e.g. the 'coalition intelligence officers' mentioned in the article.

It said nothing about most of the prisoners being there by accident. I agree with you we should not be treating prisoners like that, however it appears they were there for a reason and not by accident.

 

[Nasarius]

It said nothing about most of the prisoners being there by accident.

If you're talking about the article:

The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated "between 70 percent and 90 percent' of the detainees in Iraq "had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.'

 

[Mycroft]

The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated "between 70 percent and 90 percent' of the detainees in Iraq "had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.'

This is a little unclear to me. Is this saying that 70 yo 90 percent of the people arrested were arrested by mistake? Ir 70 to 90 percent of the people currently being detained?

There is quite a difference.

 

[Bjorn]

This is a little unclear to me. Is this saying that 70 yo 90 percent of the people arrested were arrested by mistake? Ir 70 to 90 percent of the people currently being detained?

There is quite a difference.

The quote, again:

The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated "between 70 percent and 90 percent of the detainees in Iraq" had been arrested by mistake.

70 to 90 percent of the detainees is just that. It's not 70 to 90 percent of the people.

 

[varwoche]

It said nothing about most of the prisoners being there by accident. I agree with you we should not be treating prisoners like that, however it appears they were there for a reason and not by accident.

1) Prisoners have been abused, and 2) a high percentage of arrested Iraqis are innocent, according to intelligence officers.

No, this doesn't mean that the prisoners who are abused are innocent. It's one more thing to give pause however.

 

[varwoche]

1) Prisoners have been abused, and 2) a high percentage of arrested Iraqis are innocent, according to intelligence officers.

No, this doesn't mean that the prisoners who are abused are innocent. It's one more thing to give pause however.

Especially for this piece of work:
Inhofe

"I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," Inhofe, an Oklahoma Republican and an outspoken conservative, told a U.S. Senate hearing probing the case.

 

[Grammatron]

1) Prisoners have been abused, and 2) a high percentage of arrested Iraqis are innocent, according to intelligence officers.

No, this doesn't mean that the prisoners who are abused are innocent. It's one more thing to give pause however.

Being arrested does not mean you are a prisoner. People can be arrested, questioned and released. So my -- and I believe Mycroft's -- question is are they talking about people who have been arrested or arrested and imprisoned for something?

 

[Bjorn]

Being arrested does not mean you are a prisoner. People can be arrested, questioned and released. So my -- and I believe Mycroft's -- question is are they talking about people who have been arrested or arrested and imprisoned for something?

.... Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested "by mistake,' according to coalition intelligence officers .....

What is a detainee - is it someone arrested and let go or is it someone kept in prison?

 

[fishbob]

Inhofe:

"I am also outraged that we have so many humanitarian do-gooders right now crawling all over these prisons looking for human rights violations, while our troops, our heroes are fighting and dying."

The detained Iraqis are not shooting at our troops, are not blowing up stuff, and therefore are not threats, yet the detained Iraqis are being abused. Abusers, by definition, are bad guys.

Your term 'arrested' implies the presence of some legal due process. Note that the media and the military are not using the word 'arrested'. The word is 'detained'. No legal proceedings are indicated, and apparently a fair number of illegal proceedings have been proceeding.

As has been reported, our guys sometimes grab a handy Iraqi and toss him into the pokey, there to be poked and prodded by crews of our sadistic morons. Which is not so different from what Saddam was doing. Which our troops are over there getting shot at and blown up to prevent. So now our guys can expect to be poked and prodded and decapitated if they are captured.

Don't minimize just how bad it is when our guys are the bad guys.

 

[Grammatron]

What is a detainee - is it someone arrested and let go or is it someone kept in prison?

That's what I am trying to find out as well.

 

[karl]

According to one article by a reporter that had spent some time with the American troops in Iraq (I haven't seen this confirmed by other sources, so I still have some doubts), the main reason so many innocent people have been detained is not that Americans like to "grab a handy Iraqi and toss him into the pokey." It's that they have found that a successful way of flushing out a hiding suspect is to arrest some of his neighbors and family members and abuse them until he turns himself in. This allegedly works quite well if the prison has a reputation as a hellhole where people get humiliated, beaten and sometimes killed.

Officially they can always claim such arrests were made "by mistake."

 

[fishbob]

It's that they have found that a successful way of flushing out a hiding suspect is to arrest some of his neighbors and family members and abuse them until he turns himself in. This allegedly works quite well if the prison has a reputation as a hellhole where people get humiliated, beaten and sometimes killed.

Get a hiding suspect today and deal with decapitated American prisoners later. Short term gain selected over long term benefit. This model has often failed in business applications, so how smart is it to try it in war?