About those WTC fire drills.

[Lenbrazil]

Yeah I know this topic is so 2006 but on a forum where I frequently debate 9/11 someone brought up the old Ben Fountain 'evacuations' quote from People suggesting they gave the evil MIBH (Men in Black Helicopters) opportunities to plant the bombs. Since it's been a while here's the full quote:


Ben Fountain, 42, a financial analyst with Fireman's Fund, was coming out of the Chambers Street Station, headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower.

How could they let this happen? They knew this building was a target. Over the past few weeks we'd been evacuated a number of times, which is unusual. I think they had an inkling something was going on.[1]

One serious problem for the truthers is that about 20,000 people worked in the towers (not to mention those in the other buildings) yet more than 11 years after the attacks they have not found anyone confirming this. The closest they've gotten was a WTC worker (who was absent on 9/11) turned truther who told truther blogger 'Killtown': “We had regular fire/evacuation drills, but not an unusual number.” [2] (HT to James B. at SLC for pointing this out) [3]


But even if we accept Fountain's account it doesn't really help the truthers; how would it have been possible for the NWO/MIBH to have surreptitiously wired up two of the largest buildings in the world over a “few weeks” during a couple of fire drills? “CDI’s 12 person loading crew took twenty four days to place 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on columns on nine levels of the [Hudson's] complex” [4]. But Hudson's was “2.2 Million square feet” [5]and each WTC tower had about 4.7 million square feet of above ground space and close 5 million if we count the basements [6] and of course having to work in secret would have made the work far more complex and time consuming.


A more serious problem is that many WTC workers did not participate in the drills and few of those who did actually left their floors during them:

According to the book High-Rise Security and Fire Life Safety, (Third Edition, 2009) Geoff Craighead fire drills at the WTC were 'semiannual' (pg. 54) and a survey of 9/11 survivors from the Twin Towers revealed that “Eighteen percent did not recall whether they had participated (in any fire drills in the previous 12 months) or not; 18 percent reported they had not. New York City law prohibited requiring full evacuation using stairs during fire drills.” (pg. 89) [7]

Other sources reported similar information:

From: “THE HUMAN factor - World Trade Center Evacuees Share Lessons Learned As NFPA Starts New Behavior Study, Stephen Murphy, NFPA Journal (National Fire Protection Association) Sept. -Oct. 2002

“I think I can speak for most in saying that people in the workplace don’t really pay too much attention to a fire drill,” [Brian] Bernstein [ of Lehman Brothers (38th floor North Tower)] says. Working in the South Tower, [Magdalena] Brown [from Washington Group International, (91st floor)] recalls fire drills in which people congregated where the hallways intersected in the center of the floor and were told to wait for instructions and not to use the elevators. Colleague [John] Van Name, a senior consulting engineer, says that during the drills, which they had at least twice a year, a public announcement told them they should go three floors below or above their floor if it were on fire. But they never practiced evacuating the area by going into the stairwells. “You’ve done this hundreds of times since you were a school child, and you know you’ll be able to get out,” says Bernstein. “However, now I can’t help but pay serious attention.”​

[8]


According to: The World Trade Center Evacuation Study
Robyn R.M. Gershon, MHS, DrPH (Principal Investigator) a survey of 9/11 WTC evacuees

94% Had NEVER exited the building as part of a drill
81% Had participated in fire drills, but of these, ONLY 11% HAD EVER ENTERED A STAIRWELL​

[9]

Notes:
1] “Hell on Earth, In New York City, Those Who Escaped the Carnage Ran a Horrifying Gauntlet”September 24, 2001. http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20135392,00.html

2] “Scott Forbes Interview” Killtown blog, DECEMBER 24, 2005 http://killtown.blogspot.com.br/2005/12/scott-forbes-interview.html

3] *“Ben Fountain, Meet Scott Forbes” Screw Loose Change blog MAY 23, 2006 http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com.br/2006/05/ben-fountain-meet-scott-forbes.html

4] “J.L. Hudson Department Store” Controlled Demolition, Inc website http://www.controlled-demolition.com/jl-hudson-department-store

5] ibid

6] There were 109 above ground floors and 6 basement levels, each floor was 208 x 208 feet.

7] http://books.google.com/books?id=4BWyBELDQIwC&pg=PA54

8] http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/mbrsecurepdf/journal0902humanfactor.pdf , Pgs. 58 – 9

9] http://coeh.berkeley.edu/symposium/2012Presentations/2012COEH2.Gershon_R.pdf

 

[cjnewson88]

Pretty much. The idea that 20,000 people would evacuate two 110 story buildings all the way to the ground during their busy day just because of a fire drill is ludicrous. As your post points out, not all people even participated in the drills, and most of those who did never even left the building. Dare I say it, fire drills for most the occupants probably would involve standing by an exit sign or making their way to the nearest sky lobby.

 

[threadworm]

We test our fire alarms at work every week. No one is required to leave the building.

If they want to test evacuation procedures, they do it on a day we aren't expecting it.

 

[Lenbrazil]

Pretty much. The idea that 20,000 people would evacuate two 110 story buildings all the way to the ground during their busy day just because of a fire drill is ludicrous. As your post points out, not all people even participated in the drills, and most of those who did never even left the building. Dare I say it, fire drills for most the occupants probably would involve standing by an exit sign or making their way to the nearest sky lobby.

Leave the building? They didn't even go to the stairs.

Note that the drills were carried out by the companies, I imagine the big tenants would only have done 1 or 2 floors at a time.

One thing I though odd was that going 3 floors up was one of the options if there was a real fire, I guess that's how sure they were any fires could be contained. Still seems like a bad idea.

 

[njslim]

Rick Rescorla, security director for Morgan Stanley brokerage firm which had offices in
South Tower and WTC 7, practiced evacuation twice a year

On September 11 everyone knew what to do and where to go


After a company merger in 1997, Rescorla became director of security at Morgan Stanley, where he maintained vigilant attention to the firm's -- and the building's -- safety. Despite disruption at the busy brokerage firm, he insisted on holding twice-yearly evacuation drills by the stairwell for the firm's 22 floors in the south tower.

The result: On Sept. 11, 2001, his team was ready.

Despite having received official instructions to stay put after the 8:46 a.m. crash next door, Rescorla told Morgan Stanley staffers to follow his evacuation plan, and he sent them two by two, as they had practiced, down the many flights of stairs. His decision and his preparation made all the difference. Although 13 employees -- including Rescorla -- perished, more than 2,500 employees left the tower alive. That's where the word "miracle" comes in. It's also where the word "hero" comes in.

 

[Redwood]

If the Vast Conspiracy was able to plant demolition charges and initiators during fire drills without anyone noticing, perfectly concealing all traces of their existence, then they are so competent that the best thing to do is to join 'em, not fight 'em. The pay is really great and the fringe benefits are fabulous.

 

[beachnut]

About those WTC fire drills? lol

... But even if we accept Fountain's account it doesn't really help the truthers; how would it have been possible for the NWO/MIBH to have surreptitiously wired up two of the largest buildings in the world over a “few weeks” during a couple of fire drills? ....\

Amazing how the NWO found silent explosives which don't leave blast marks on WTC steel, or damage peoples brains. Wow, silent, blast free explosives. Wait, maybe they planted paper and plastic to burn down the WTC using fire. Yes, the office contents burning before collapse equaled in heat energy to 2,500 TONS of TNT.

Nothing is too stupid for 911 truth to throw at the wall.

 

[Foolmewunz]

It's not surprising that only truther "witnesses" have reported these drills that include evacuation. They just didn't happen. Prior to the '93 bombing there wasn't even a requirement to have company appointed monitors or fire captains. They'd announce a fire drill about a week in advance for a group of offices on a few floors. And they'd have you head towards an appointed stairwell exit where building security would meet you and make an address, which I still recall starting with, "Thank you. This concludes our fire drill. Had this been an actual fire or emergency you would be given further instructions from this location as to how to proceed with an orderly evacuation of the building if it was necessary."

I was out of the WTC from '91 through half of '94, so I was curious when I worked there again in '94 and '95 as to how the drills would be different. The drills were the same, but now they had mandated requirements that we have a fire captain, and if the office was over 50 people one monitor to check for each 50 head, to make sure they exited. We were also given big flashlights that had to be kept on a prominent shelf for each X amount of people - not 50, much less, but I can't remember how many. But the drills were the same.

Evacuating the towers would be several hours and there's no way the business community would've put up with it unless it was the law. And certainly not repeated drills over a few weeks or month. This is truther fantasy.

(Further, you evacuate ON FOOT. Down is not as easy as everyone thinks, for healthy people. Can you imagine the thought of evacuating wheelchair users or persons with other physical disabilities. These things I know because in my combined 12 or 13 years in Tower 1, we had to evacuate twice. A smoker fire when I was all the way up on the 77th floor, and a bomb scare in '82 when I was only on the 23rd. )

Oh, and on a goofy note... when there were actual emergencies that same voice that said "If this had been a real emergency...." was no where to be found. Instead of waiting for us at "your assigned emergency exit location", he was running from door to door pounding on them with his forearm and shouting "Get out! Get out! Are you farking crazy. There's a fire!" Very calm and professional, just like the drills. No one I know of ever "proceeded in an orderly fashion to...." anywhere.

 

[Oystein]

This is not 9/11-related, only related to evacuation awareness and such stuff:

The degree to which people are aware of measures to improve safety at work is very much a function of company culture. In the 90s, I worked for a producer of pesticides - office site only, far away from any plant or warehouses. But still it was chemical industry, and following a number of large incidents (Bhopal! Seveso!) and increasing environmental awareness, companies had started to develop programs to increase safety - sometimes not just around poisonous stuffs, but across the board. I hear Du Pont was leading the way in the industry after Bhopal, as safety enjoyed top priority at the board. Their rates of work related accidents must hav dropped sharply, even in mere office environments.

During my time, I went through two mergers. I originally started as an intern at Schering. My first project was define specification for a database application to document GLP-compliance in connection with the handling of non-commercial samples of pesticides by our field technicians. I visited several of these technicians, as well as the lab that supplied them with samples, and, well, I saw things I didn't think possible However, Schering was determined to improve things, and they did. Also, we had a very dedicated - what foolme calls "fire captain" - the guy in charge of everything safety related at our office site. He was granted time and money to educate himself on those issues, and he came back with ideas for improvements. We learned how to operate the elevators manually in case someone was trapped, became aware of the need to keep escape routes free, all electrical devices, including private radios or coffee machines, were routinely checked by an electrician, etc.

Then the first merger came, with Hoechst, and we found that the Hoechstians met our safety level with blank eyes. They created more pesticide waste, used old and unsafe machinery... but over time, they, too, learned.

Then the second merger - with France's Rhone-Poulenc! Wowowow! At their sales admin offices, they hard-locked emergency exits after 5 or pm such that the only way to leave the office was via elevator. In case of an emergency... Be among the first 10 in the elevator, and hope for the best! it took several rounds of debate to change that rule. The solution was easy: Fix the little thing on top of the door that automatically pulls it shut! Cost: about DM 100 (that's Deutsche Mark for the older, but not too old, among you ).



In the 2000's, I worked as a consultant at various companies, mostly mobile phone operators or insurances.
Insurances were ok. The tech companies were chaos!
Having been trained to locate emergency exits first thing I enter a new building, it was often I who noticed that Exit signs pointed the wrong way, doors were blocked, stairwells not lit, and frequently filed tickets for janitors to improve things.

Never did a fire drill with the mobile co's. Did a couple, and pretty comprehensive ones, with insurers.

Insurers were concerned with ergonomic issues - layout of work desk, number of workstations per area unit, noise level. Mobile co's were not.



Now I wonder how it is in a large building with many tenants? Must be a pain in the butt to organise a drill! Those things are usually done top down, but with a bunch of tenants, there is no top, really.

 

[LSSBB]

This is not 9/11-related, only related to evacuation awareness and such stuff:

The degree to which people are aware of measures to improve safety at work is very much a function of company culture. In the 90s, I worked for a producer of pesticides - office site only, far away from any plant or warehouses. But still it was chemical industry, and following a number of large incidents (Bhopal! Seveso!) and increasing environmental awareness, companies had started to develop programs to increase safety - sometimes not just around poisonous stuffs, but across the board. I hear Du Pont was leading the way in the industry after Bhopal, as safety enjoyed top priority at the board. Their rates of work related accidents must hav dropped sharply, even in mere office environments.

During my time, I went through two mergers. I originally started as an intern at Schering. My first project was define specification for a database application to document GLP-compliance in connection with the handling of non-commercial samples of pesticides by our field technicians. I visited several of these technicians, as well as the lab that supplied them with samples, and, well, I saw things I didn't think possible However, Schering was determined to improve things, and they did. Also, we had a very dedicated - what foolme calls "fire captain" - the guy in charge of everything safety related at our office site. He was granted time and money to educate himself on those issues, and he came back with ideas for improvements. We learned how to operate the elevators manually in case someone was trapped, became aware of the need to keep escape routes free, all electrical devices, including private radios or coffee machines, were routinely checked by an electrician, etc.

Then the first merger came, with Hoechst, and we found that the Hoechstians met our safety level with blank eyes. They created more pesticide waste, used old and unsafe machinery... but over time, they, too, learned.

Then the second merger - with France's Rhone-Poulenc! Wowowow! At their sales admin offices, they hard-locked emergency exits after 5 or pm such that the only way to leave the office was via elevator. In case of an emergency... Be among the first 10 in the elevator, and hope for the best! it took several rounds of debate to change that rule. The solution was easy: Fix the little thing on top of the door that automatically pulls it shut! Cost: about DM 100 (that's Deutsche Mark for the older, but not too old, among you ).



In the 2000's, I worked as a consultant at various companies, mostly mobile phone operators or insurances.
Insurances were ok. The tech companies were chaos!
Having been trained to locate emergency exits first thing I enter a new building, it was often I who noticed that Exit signs pointed the wrong way, doors were blocked, stairwells not lit, and frequently filed tickets for janitors to improve things.

Never did a fire drill with the mobile co's. Did a couple, and pretty comprehensive ones, with insurers.

Insurers were concerned with ergonomic issues - layout of work desk, number of workstations per area unit, noise level. Mobile co's were not.



Now I wonder how it is in a large building with many tenants? Must be a pain in the butt to organise a drill! Those things are usually done top down, but with a bunch of tenants, there is no top, really.

In large multi-tenant facilities, I imagine that would be a responsibility of the owner and managed often by a real-estate management company, such as Jones Lang LaSalle.

 

[Lenbrazil]

This is not 9/11-related, only related to evacuation awareness and such stuff:

The degree to which people are aware of measures to improve safety at work is very much a function of company culture. In the 90s, I worked for a producer of pesticides - office site only, far away from any plant or warehouses. But still it was chemical industry, and following a number of large incidents (Bhopal! Seveso!) and increasing environmental awareness, companies had started to develop programs to increase safety - sometimes not just around poisonous stuffs, but across the board. I hear Du Pont was leading the way in the industry after Bhopal, as safety enjoyed top priority at the board. Their rates of work related accidents must hav dropped sharply, even in mere office environments.

During my time, I went through two mergers. I originally started as an intern at Schering. My first project was define specification for a database application to document GLP-compliance in connection with the handling of non-commercial samples of pesticides by our field technicians. I visited several of these technicians, as well as the lab that supplied them with samples, and, well, I saw things I didn't think possible However, Schering was determined to improve things, and they did. Also, we had a very dedicated - what foolme calls "fire captain" - the guy in charge of everything safety related at our office site. He was granted time and money to educate himself on those issues, and he came back with ideas for improvements. We learned how to operate the elevators manually in case someone was trapped, became aware of the need to keep escape routes free, all electrical devices, including private radios or coffee machines, were routinely checked by an electrician, etc.

Then the first merger came, with Hoechst, and we found that the Hoechstians met our safety level with blank eyes. They created more pesticide waste, used old and unsafe machinery... but over time, they, too, learned.

Then the second merger - with France's Rhone-Poulenc! Wowowow! At their sales admin offices, they hard-locked emergency exits after 5 or pm such that the only way to leave the office was via elevator. In case of an emergency... Be among the first 10 in the elevator, and hope for the best! it took several rounds of debate to change that rule. The solution was easy: Fix the little thing on top of the door that automatically pulls it shut! Cost: about DM 100 (that's Deutsche Mark for the older, but not too old, among you ).



In the 2000's, I worked as a consultant at various companies, mostly mobile phone operators or insurances.
Insurances were ok. The tech companies were chaos!
Having been trained to locate emergency exits first thing I enter a new building, it was often I who noticed that Exit signs pointed the wrong way, doors were blocked, stairwells not lit, and frequently filed tickets for janitors to improve things.

Never did a fire drill with the mobile co's. Did a couple, and pretty comprehensive ones, with insurers.

Insurers were concerned with ergonomic issues - layout of work desk, number of workstations per area unit, noise level. Mobile co's were not.



Now I wonder how it is in a large building with many tenants? Must be a pain in the butt to organise a drill! Those things are usually done top down, but with a bunch of tenants, there is no top, really.

Years ago I gave classes at a black powder factory which made it to the local news every couple of years because explosions. Though IIRC only rarely was anyone killed there were many injuries and often reports of damage miles away. People told me I was crazy to go there, but since I was teaching the top bosses I figured I was safe, there was a good size hill between the production and management areas.

 

[njslim]

Having down work in many Morgam Stanley brokerage offices in NY/New Jersey area
find they take safety very serious

When you go into their offices (those over 3 stories) will find at each exit maps of the floor and the way out

Also is bin containing chemical light sticks and smoke masks for evacuating

Each office has a memorial plaque listing the names of those who died on 9/11 in South
Tower - if to drive home the point