Theodore Kurita
Leader of the Draconis Combine
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I am taking this from dimossi. I almost forgot about this until I noticed it in the forums.
This is just a reminder.
This is just a reminder.
A reminder for all Skeptics... Frontline: Alternative Medicine
- Thread starter Theodore Kurita
- Start date
I found the show very thought provoking.
I believe, no matter what, no matter the evidence (if there is a lot or not), that complementary/integrative/whatever medicine will be incorporated into all conventional medical training because of the demand.
I believe, no matter what, no matter the evidence (if there is a lot or not), that complementary/integrative/whatever medicine will be incorporated into all conventional medical training because of the demand.
hgc
Penultimate Amazing
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I started watching this, and it started in Beth Israel Hospital in NY, where there was a consultation between health professionals about a patient. Two were doctors, one was an accupuncturist and one was a mind-body thingamajiggy. I got depressed because I've actually been under the knife in that hospital, and I couldn't bear to think of the craziness.
But before I turned it off, I noticed that the narrator made a point right away that the hospital is selling these services because alternative meds is big business.
But before I turned it off, I noticed that the narrator made a point right away that the hospital is selling these services because alternative meds is big business.
billydkid
Illuminator
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the show
I only saw part of it. One thing struck me - the supposed double blind accupuncture study. If I understand correctly, the patients were told they would either be getting fact acupuncture or real accupuncture. Now, if you have ever had accupuncture you will not that the sensation of actually having those needles inserted is quite distinct from not having them inserted. Supposedly the practitioner would tap the insertion tube as though he were inserting the needles in the placebo group. I'm sorry, but there is no mistaking the tapping for actual insertion and this was compounded by the patients being told that they could be getting either the placebo treatment or the real treatment.
If the patients had all assumed they were getting "real" treatment, then, plausibly, they could have believed the placebo treatment was real treatment. Now I suppose if none of them had ever had accupuncture they could believe the placebo was the real thing. I find it highly unlikely that anyone getting the real treatment could mistake that for the placebo and would, therefore, be more likely inclined to get the effect - in my opinion a placebo effect.
I have had accupuncture - a the suggestion of my GP I took a long course of futile treatment - and believe, no matter what they tell you, accupuncture hurts. If they hit the "right" spot it actually hurts like hell. The upshot is I don't believe that anyone in the study, unless they are exceedinglly dim, could mistake having needles inserted into their bodies with not having needles inserted into their bodies.
I only saw part of it. One thing struck me - the supposed double blind accupuncture study. If I understand correctly, the patients were told they would either be getting fact acupuncture or real accupuncture. Now, if you have ever had accupuncture you will not that the sensation of actually having those needles inserted is quite distinct from not having them inserted. Supposedly the practitioner would tap the insertion tube as though he were inserting the needles in the placebo group. I'm sorry, but there is no mistaking the tapping for actual insertion and this was compounded by the patients being told that they could be getting either the placebo treatment or the real treatment.
If the patients had all assumed they were getting "real" treatment, then, plausibly, they could have believed the placebo treatment was real treatment. Now I suppose if none of them had ever had accupuncture they could believe the placebo was the real thing. I find it highly unlikely that anyone getting the real treatment could mistake that for the placebo and would, therefore, be more likely inclined to get the effect - in my opinion a placebo effect.
I have had accupuncture - a the suggestion of my GP I took a long course of futile treatment - and believe, no matter what they tell you, accupuncture hurts. If they hit the "right" spot it actually hurts like hell. The upshot is I don't believe that anyone in the study, unless they are exceedinglly dim, could mistake having needles inserted into their bodies with not having needles inserted into their bodies.
The documentary was almost as fairly presented as I could hope for. Unkind truths were spoken: the alternative company is a money making business. FDA can only jump in if enough people are seriously hurt by a supplement company. The hospitals are not employing alternative tactics because they work, but because people ask for them. People will try anything for hope, for the feeling of being in control of a situation even if they might not be. Etc and etc.
I'm also glad they caught up on a couple of the anecdotal case studies, and narrated the results.
I'm also willing to bet Randi's million dollars that alternative woo-woo believers will cite this documentary as a source supporting their beliefs.
I'm also glad they caught up on a couple of the anecdotal case studies, and narrated the results.
I'm also willing to bet Randi's million dollars that alternative woo-woo believers will cite this documentary as a source supporting their beliefs.
billydkid
Illuminator
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Also
And, man, I found it infuriating seeing those pseudoscience jackasses sitting around discussing treatment options with the doctors - as though they were just "medical professionals" in different "disciplines". To my mind, the color therapists and sound therapists and aroma therapists and the therapeudic touch therapists and all the rest are no better than John Edward and Sylvia (the trailer skank) Browne and all the rest of them.
And, man, I found it infuriating seeing those pseudoscience jackasses sitting around discussing treatment options with the doctors - as though they were just "medical professionals" in different "disciplines". To my mind, the color therapists and sound therapists and aroma therapists and the therapeudic touch therapists and all the rest are no better than John Edward and Sylvia (the trailer skank) Browne and all the rest of them.
Theodore Kurita
Leader of the Draconis Combine
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I wish they would have presented the Skeptic side more than the woowoo believer side.
I do think the FDA should have the right to regulate all of Alternative Medicine...
I do think the FDA should have the right to regulate all of Alternative Medicine...
Theodore Kurita said:
In my opinion, the skeptical side and the pro-complementary medicine side were about equal.
On the skeptical side, they had several skeptics, about 4 or so (Park, Sampson, Angel, and some guy whose name I can't find) and presented reasons why alternative medicine isn't up to standards. They also presented Voodoo Science, and a journal of the scientific review of alternative medicine.
T'ai Chi said:
Ah, goody. Then you certainly should have understood what I meant by my reference to Santayana what history teaches. And you most assuredly understand why your quip about the future was a clear non-sequitur. Now, to put it all together, dive into the history of the FDA, its predecessor and the background reasons for its creation. Then review Santayana. Then plug in that 15 watt bulb of yours and see some light.
BillHoyt said:
Graduating from several universities does not mean that one knows all topics, or has even been exposed to all topics. As for me, I primarily concentrated on studying my major topics: Mathematics and Statistics.
Or, sir, you could just tell me what you actually meant by it? Wild idea, I know!!!