A question about near-death experiences

[Sati1984]

Today, I had a discussion with one of my co-workers about some paranormal stuff. He had a passing statement about NDEs that got me thinking:

"If the most widely-accepted explanation for near-death experiences is that the brain itself produces the images because of the lack of oxygen, then why don't people who faint report the same experiences?"

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

I tried to google this, but no luck, so I thought I will ask this here: what other factors could contribute to triggering the NDE?

 

[CJW]

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

Is it? I'm not sure - but in any case, someone who faints continues to breathe after fainting, someone who dies temporarily stops breathing, so there is a big difference in oxygen supplied to the brain in both cases.

 

[Crossbow]

Today, I had a discussion with one of my co-workers about some paranormal stuff. He had a passing statement about NDEs that got me thinking:

"If the most widely-accepted explanation for near-death experiences is that the brain itself produces the images because of the lack of oxygen, then why don't people who faint report the same experiences?"

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

I tried to google this, but no luck, so I thought I will ask this here: what other factors could contribute to triggering the NDE?

I suggest that you point out to your friend that they do report such things!

Specifically, one of the hazards in aviation is a condition known as hypoxia which is oxygen starvation that can occur at high altitudes. And one of the symptons of hypoxia is euphoria.

Therefore, cases of people seeing and experiencing all sorts of strange things is quite well known in cases where there is a lack of oxygen.

 

[Sati1984]

Is it? I'm not sure - but in any case, someone who faints continues to breathe after fainting, someone who dies temporarily stops breathing, so there is a big difference in oxygen supplied to the brain in both cases.

My co-worker's argument was that a person who faints, does not remember anything from during the time they were unconscious. Unconsciousness during clinical death should be even deeper than that, so how come people who were in CD can sometimes remember things?

 

[Nursedan]

In his TED speech Michael Shermer mentioned that the effects people described can be also brought about by hallucinogenic drugs. So, oxygen deprivation might have something to do with it, or it could also be something else. Maybe an acute rush of adrenaline or other hormone?

 

[Hellbound]

My co-worker's argument was that a person who faints, does not remember anything from during the time they were unconscious. Unconsciousness during clinical death should be even deeper than that, so how come people who were in CD can sometimes remember things?

They believe they remember things. My first objection is that there's generally no way to know ifwhat they remember occurred before, during, or after the period of unconsciousness.

Beyond that, in one case (fainting), you have a relatively rapid loss of circulation (therefore oxygen) that is almost immediately reversed. It's typically caused by a dilation of the blood vessels (same blood volume+more vessel volume to fill=not enough blood to pump all the way up to the head, and what's there falls down). In CD cases, there can be any of a number of reasons for the loss of oxygen, but it's often a less rapid decline (minutes or hours instead of seconds). Not to mention that in these CD cases there's typically medical intervention involved at some point.

Fainting is technically a type of shock (in the medical sense). Yet in fainting we see very few of the symptoms of shock simply because it is rapid and transient.

And, as Crossbow pointed out, in other cases of slower-onset hypoxia (such as high G manuevers), these things are reported.

Imagine shutting down a computer. If you pull the power plug, all you may get in the log is a notice of an imporper shutdown. If you cycle the power fast enough the system may not even shut down (there's enough 'residual' power in the AC-DC converter to carry it for a tenth of a second or so). If you instead disconnect all the power conenctions inside the computer case one at a time, you'll get a lot more entries throughout the process. Not an exact analogy, but hopefully you get the idea

 

[TX50]

[Anecdote]
On the one occasion on which I was strangled unconscious (with the WW2 British commando "Japanese strangle hold" technique) I distinctly experienced the "looking at a light down a dark tunnel" thingy before I went sleepy-byes.
[/Anecdote]

 

[godless dave]

My co-worker's argument was that a person who faints, does not remember anything from during the time they were unconscious. Unconsciousness during clinical death should be even deeper than that, so how come people who were in CD can sometimes remember things?

We don't know that NDEs occur during clinical death.

 

[Js1981]

I did lots of research on the subject(expected a very long post):

1) It isn't known what produces images as yet and those images not only happen in certain conditions, they happen while car accidents, cardiac arrest etc etc, no pattern there.
2) there isn't any example of NDE happening in laboratory conditions. AWARE studies stared in 2008 and were inconclusive till 2010 and now are expected to run till 2012.
Laboratory conditions for those tests are very basic:
standard OBE test, ear plugs etc.
3) till 2010 all NDE' are explained scietificaly even by belivers. It is still unknown why they or how they happen but the whole experience is prettyuch analyzed.
4) Noone passed a simple OBE test. Long story short, brain was projecting 3D dream, all missing parts were filled by logic and often based on what hearing registerd before the brain went dead.
5) there isn't really a pattern too. Western scientist claim: tunnel, seeing relatives etc. Western converted scientist forget about other people tho.
Asians see under the ground etc. All patterns dissapear when you look at the whole population not only one sub region. The experience is highly enhanced by cultural and religion background.

So in a shorter decription:
So far for 2011 both: critics and belivers offer mostly empirical evidence on NDE.

Belivers get a conclusion based on bending their philosophies which again contradict themself based on religion and culture- a total mess.
Scientist can't decide the cause of the effect.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

Today, I had a discussion with one of my co-workers about some paranormal stuff. He had a passing statement about NDEs that got me thinking:

"If the most widely-accepted explanation for near-death experiences is that the brain itself produces the images because of the lack of oxygen, then why don't people who faint report the same experiences?"

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

I tried to google this, but no luck, so I thought I will ask this here: what other factors could contribute to triggering the NDE?

As mentioned people who faint report such experiences. Some people even bring about such episodes deliberately. EG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_game

Most people who survive cardiac arrest do not report a near death experience.

BTW I don't think that there is one explanation for NDEs. Some reported NDEs appear to be cases of intraoperative wakefulness. I'd expect there to be a share of hoaxed or confabulated accounts as well.
On the whole the NDE phenomenon is more sociological than medical.

 

[Pup]

Today, I had a discussion with one of my co-workers about some paranormal stuff. He had a passing statement about NDEs that got me thinking:

"If the most widely-accepted explanation for near-death experiences is that the brain itself produces the images because of the lack of oxygen, then why don't people who faint report the same experiences?"

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

I tried to google this, but no luck, so I thought I will ask this here: what other factors could contribute to triggering the NDE?

Going by logic, rather than specifics of research, it seems to me that if fainting were identical to "near death," then yes, the experiences should be the same.

But because we define "near death" as something different than fainting, it should be self-evident that the body will be experiencing additional symptoms, and therefore the brain will be affect by those different symptoms in addition to lack of oxygen, and therefore will react somewhat differently.

 

[Brattus]

I am embarrassed to write this but here it goes.
When I first gave blood many moons ago at age 18 I fainted.
I remember flying down a hole or tunnel with the bloodmobile I was in getting farther and farther away.
So the same thing does happen in fainting as in NDE (if there is such a thing) but no one cares enough to talk about it.

A lot of people will grasp at any straw they can find to believe in life after death.
Since fainting can't be used for that purpose no one bothers with it.

I find it very confusing that these same people don't realize if there were life after death then the entire concept of death wouldn't even exist.
It would just be life after life.
Silly Wabbits!

 

[Kuko 4000]

Today, I had a discussion with one of my co-workers about some paranormal stuff. He had a passing statement about NDEs that got me thinking:

"If the most widely-accepted explanation for near-death experiences is that the brain itself produces the images because of the lack of oxygen, then why don't people who faint report the same experiences?"

... he wondered, obviously thinking about that oxygen deprivation is the common denominator in both cases (fainting and clinical death).

I tried to google this, but no luck, so I thought I will ask this here: what other factors could contribute to triggering the NDE?

You might be interested in this new Skeptoid episode about NDE's:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4261

For example:

It turns out that extensive research has been done to characterize a person's experience with loss of blood to the brain when there is no risk of death, by that patron saint of human experimentation, the US military. For 15 years, Dr. James Whinnery put hundreds of healthy young fighter pilots into centrifuges to understand what a pilot might experience under extreme gravitational loads. He put them in until they blacked out. Once they reached a point where there was inadequate bloodflow to the brain, they lost consciousness; and among the frequently reported experiences were the following: Bright light, floating through a tunnel, out of body experiences, vivid dreams of beautiful places, euphoria, rapid memories of past events, meeting with friends and family, and more. The list is an exact match with the events attributed by believers to a brush with the afterlife.

To understand "the believer" side of things a little better, you might be interested in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173466&highlight=tsakiris

 

[LeeseT]

Funnily enough , having been pondering NDEs this very morning, thought I might post my thoughts on this very subject….hope I make sense.
I was posting something on another forum about Hypnagogia etc. etc. Apparently, a person may, whilst in a state of Hypnagogia, may experience ( amongst many other things) that light tunnel phenomena , experience feelings of floating and might actually hear voices/music or poetry……. To me anyway that sounds very similar to some of the NDEs that people describe. So, my point is……when an individual faints it happens quite suddenly, but a person who is ….er…close to death ( for want of a better few words) on , say, an operating table, or suffering hypothermia etc etc may be experiencing a slowing down similar to that experienced whilst falling asleep. Just a thought.

 

[fromdownunder]

Speaking as somebody who has been dead, my experience was simply finding it impossible to breathe, collapsing (I don't even remember that) and then waking up in Intensive Care about 14 hours later with a huge tube stuck down my throat.

No NDE for me.

Norm

 

[quarky]

I had a very bizarre nde. It brings me shame to recount it:
As a curious teenager I'd heard about morning-glory seeds being psycho-active. I bought an heroic dose of them at my local hardware store and put them into horse capsules to facilitate swallowing the gross quantity.
A friend baby-sat me for the event.

I felt like I was dying. And I was. Unbeknownst to me; the seeds were treated with a potent fungicide. They were quite toxic. Compounding the event; I was also 'tripping balls' as they say. There were tunnels and lights and stuff.

Amazingly stupid.
I think I lived through it. But who knows?

"La vida es sueno"

 

[bonzo2]

Well I have experienced a similar experience but I was not unwell, under the influence or short of oxygen lol! I woke up on a friends sofa in the early hours of the morning and I experienced a fantastic feeling of love and peace and actually saw some some star like lights in the room that gradually faded out. Wherever I was, I did not want to return to my body or earthly life and would have happily died at that moment.

I have no explaination for my experience but I know it happened and it was real.

 

[Pixel42]

I have no explaination for my experience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnopompic

A hypnopompic state (or hypnopomp) is the state of consciousness leading out of sleep [...]

The hypnagogic state is rational waking cognition trying to make sense of non-linear images and associations [...]

When the awakening occurs out of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, in which most dreams occur, the hypnopompic state is sometimes accompanied by lingering vivid imagery. Some of the creative insights attributed to dreams actually happen in this moment of awakening from REM.

 

[bonzo2]

Interesting perspective but I would argue that is science's way of explaining the unexplainable. I know what I experienced and it had nought to do with any confusion between sleep and being awake. It was profoundly spiritual in nature and I am thankful for the experience.

 

[Stray Cat]

Excuse the old joke, but I thought denial was a river in Egypt.