A Border Killing Inflames Mexican Anger at U.S. Policy

Ed

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Very interesting. It seems that Mexico is indignant over the US securing it's borders.

Whatever his reasons for sneaking over the border, the shooting of Mr. Martínez, 20, has fanned the flames of anger in Mexico over what many here see as an increasingly hard line in the United States against illegal immigrants. His death has become a rallying point for politicians of all stripes, who have condemned the shooting as a racist violation of human rights.
Mr. Martínez was killed two weeks after the House of Representatives passed a bill that, among other provisions, would build an additional 700 miles of tall double fences like the one here to stop illegal immigrants.
The proposed "frontier wall," as the barrier is called here, and Mr. Martínez's death have become symbols of what many Mexicans see as the deteriorating relationship between the countries and a rising tide of xenophobia in the United States.
The wall has prompted street protests in the capital and howls of criticism from Mexican politicians and editorialists, many of whom have likened the proposal to the Berlin Wall. Two Catholic bishops, in a statement, called the proposal "absurd, shameful and intolerable" and "an aspirin against cancer."
President Vicente Fox has called the wall "a disgrace," and a "very bad sign" that "does not befit a country that prides itself on being democratic."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/international/americas/14mexico.html

All of this begs the question, a couple actually.

-Does a nation have the right to use all means necessary to secure it's borders?

-Does a nation have a right to wink at it's own laws because of international pressure?

-WTF is wrong with Mexico?
 
Very interesting. It seems that Mexico is indignant over the US securing it's borders.



All of this begs the question, a couple actually.

-Does a nation have the right to use all means necessary to secure it's borders?

Yep.

-Does a nation have a right to wink at it's own laws because of international pressure?

Have the right? - Yes
Should they? Depends.


-WTF is wrong with Mexico?

Are there national elections due soon or is the Mexican economy in a very bad state?
 
The problem here is one of perspective. Rather than build a wall to prevent illegal immigrants to the US, what the government should be doing is building a wall to prevent emmigration from the US.

"No, no, you misunderstand, we are NOT trying to keep mexicans OUT. We are simply trying to keep our own citizens IN."

The overpopulation of Mexico by southwestern americans is an issue that can no longer be ignored. Free the mexican economy from the oppression of americans!!!

"Help, help, I'm being repressed."


Larsen: You are right, Monty Python quotes fit EVERYWHERE.




Santa
 
Yep.



Have the right? - Yes
Should they? Depends.




Are there national elections due soon or is the Mexican economy in a very bad state?

Mexico is, evidentially a very corrupt country. The dollars flowing back buoy their economy so it is in Fox's interest to keep illegal immigration going on.

Polititions, in order to fellate the hispanic population, pass things like "sanctuary cities" laws whereing the police are obligated to not enquire about a persons residency.

I suspect that the tide is turning on this issue (largely because, IMO, of talking heads on TV, not elected officials) and things like the wall and strict observation of federal statutes will become the norm. Hopefully.
 
Hmmmm, why does this sound familiar?

Where have I heard this all before?

Large fences separating the poor country from the rich country?

People sneaking through (for whatever reasons - fortunately for us, they're not hostile, yet) the fences

Authorities shooting boys throwing rocks.
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Martinez died Saturday in a Tijuana hospital, the Baja California state attorney general's office said. He died one day after he was shot by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near a metal wall separating that city from San Diego, according to witnesses cited by Mexican officials.

Raul Martinez, a spokesman for the Border Patrol said the agent had been "assaulted by an individual who threw a large size rock."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/03/mexico.migrant.ap/
_________

Of course, it's all perfectly justified IF the border patrol agent felt that his life was threatened by the rock that was thrown. Personally, I don't see how a rock (especially a large one) that has already been thrown is a danger. I've played racquetball most of my life and I can EASILY dodge a fast-moving small object. Perhaps the border patrol agent should have spent more time dodging doughnuts, then he might not have felt so threatened.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/03/mexico.migrant.ap/
_________

Of course, it's all perfectly justified IF the border patrol agent felt that his life was threatened by the rock that was thrown...
Then I guess it's perfectly legit. Let's quote more of the article hmmm...?

"The agent, fearing for his life at that time, fired one round at the individual, who fled back to Mexico," Martinez said Monday.


The spokesman, who is not related to the dead 18-year-old, said U.S. investigators were unsure if the victim had been struck by the bullet because he crossed back into Mexican territory.
Originally Posted by Mephisto
...I've played racquetball most of my life and I can EASILY dodge a fast-moving small object.
Perhaps the agent thought the same of the kid?

Perhaps the border patrol agent should have spent more time dodging doughnuts, then he might not have felt so threatened.
I don't remember reading anything about doughnuts. Perhaps the agent thought the kid was a terrorist throwing a hand grenade? BTW is the kid 18 or 20 years old? My point is that there are very little facts reported, (surprise) even his age is in question (assuming this is the same incident as the one in the OP).
 
It is very sad that this kid died. However, I don't see a problem with killing someone in self-defence. It can be debated as to whether or not the agent was actually in mortal danger, but since he was the only witness not in the process of committing a crime, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I really don't see how Mexico can debate our immigration policy when they're the ones printing pamplets on how to sneak into the US. I know the pamplets are just intended to let illegals know how to survive while jumping the border but it can easily be interpreted as encouraging illegal immigration to the US. However, if they perhaps took an active stance to defend their own border, their attack may seem more relevent, i.e. at least the US is doing something.
 
-Does a nation have the right to use all means necessary to secure it's borders?

Sure. The question is what are we securing against?

-Does a nation have a right to wink at it's own laws because of international pressure?

Does it have the right? Assuming a soveriegn nation, I'd guess yes. Laws are winked at in every country on the planet for a variety of reasons.

-WTF is wrong with Mexico?

Who cares? My question is this: WTF is wrong with the USA? It speaks out of both sides of it's mouth whe it comes to illegal immigration. It can't stand the idea of undocumented Spanish-speaking foreigners earning a living in the country, but can't bring itself to say no to the low wage labor pool and consequential low cost goods and services.
 
Who cares? My question is this: WTF is wrong with the USA? It speaks out of both sides of it's mouth whe it comes to illegal immigration. It can't stand the idea of undocumented Spanish-speaking foreigners earning a living in the country, but can't bring itself to say no to the low wage labor pool and consequential low cost goods and services.

Bingo.
 
Who cares? My question is this: WTF is wrong with the USA? It speaks out of both sides of it's mouth whe it comes to illegal immigration. It can't stand the idea of undocumented Spanish-speaking foreigners earning a living in the country, but can't bring itself to say no to the low wage labor pool and consequential low cost goods and services.
Could it be that the USA is composed of many people with diverse interests and needs? Could it be that a nation of the people by the people and for the people with so many different interests and needs can be a bit schizophrenic?

Here is my idea, open the borders completely but divert the immigrants to other nations including Canada, UK and Europe.

Trust me on this one. You would find out pretty damn fast just how unique America is in its tolerance towards illegal aliens.
 
Canada, UK and Europe seem pretty tolerant toward immigrants in general. Just like anywhere else, illegal immigration exists if there is a market for it.

Illegal immigration is a bit like Wal Mart. Some folks whine about Wal Mart coming to town and killing small mom and pop businesses. But they can't bring themselves to stop taking advantage of the low prices and variety offered by Wal Mart. More and lower cost goods: things which actually raise the quality of life for both consumers, vendors, and producers of the goods.

Similarly, the market has already decided. We like illegal immigrants just fine. We say so with our dollars. Even if we hate the idea of hearing spoken Spanish in the neighborhood market. That is pretty tolerant indeed.
 
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land,
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiled. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore –
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me;
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
 
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land,
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiled. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore –
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me;
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


Yes, but how many Americans know that poem and where it is engraved?
 
Canada, UK and Europe seem pretty tolerant toward immigrants in general. Just like anywhere else, illegal immigration exists if there is a market for it.
There is simply no comparison. Illegal immigrants are putting so much stress on California's resources that we are closing trauma centers at a record pace. I stand by my statement.

Illegal immigration is a bit like Wal Mart. Some folks whine about Wal Mart coming to town and killing small mom and pop businesses. But they can't bring themselves to stop taking advantage of the low prices and variety offered by Wal Mart. More and lower cost goods: things which actually raise the quality of life for both consumers, vendors, and producers of the goods.
In the case of illegal immigrants it is clearly a case of being penny wise and pound foolish.

Similarly, the market has already decided. We like illegal immigrants just fine. We say so with our dollars. Even if we hate the idea of hearing spoken Spanish in the neighborhood market. That is pretty tolerant indeed.
I'm confident if we redirected all or most of our illegal immigrants to other nations that there would be a change of attitude pretty damn fast.

And for the record. I'm pro immigration. I'm pro guest workers. America's greatest resource is its people and that includes immigrants from all over the world.

I see nothing wrong with setting immigration goals and laws and to ensure that we have control over the number of people who enter our nation. I'll never understand why some people have a problem with that. Especially people who live in nations that don't have the problems that we do. I wish like hell they would volunteer to take the excess. But then we all know that isn't going to happen. Much easier to simply criticize Americans for wanting to control our borders and reduce the level of illegal immigration.
 
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Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land,
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiled. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.


“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore –
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me;
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Yes, and how great it has made us.

That being said, what the hell does this have to do with the thread?

The subject of the thread isn't immigration. This is about illegal immigration.
 
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Two Catholic bishops, in a statement, called the proposal "absurd, shameful and intolerable" and "an aspirin against cancer."
Yeah as if they've been really helpful in all this. Many illegal immigrants are Catholic and support an otherwise sagging US Catholic attendance in the southwest.

About 460 Mexican border crossers died last year alone, killed by the heat and abandoned by Mexican smugglers called 'coyotes'.
http://www.polisci.ucsd.edu/cornelius/latimes10-1-05.pdf

The fences in California force people into more remote and dangerous places to cross.

Where is all their outrage about that?
 
There is simply no comparison. Illegal immigrants are putting so much stress on California's resources that we are closing trauma centers at a record pace. I stand by my statement.
Trauma centers all over are closing because of the poor state of the health care system. More people underinsured, using emergency rooms as primary care, at higher rates, which they can't pay, and is eventually written off/subsidized by paying/insured patients until they cannot stay open any longer. The problem would probably remain even if our illegal workers had "guest' status.

In the case of illegal immigrants it is clearly a case of being penny wise and pound foolish.
Is it so clear? Given the numbers of illegal immigrants supposed to be in the country for so long, with employment rates hovering around the mid single digits, and the quality of life in the US is probably higher than ever, it's hard to say there's too much of a problem. It would seem that the presumably underground labor pool made up by illegal immigrants is a net posititve on the economy.

I'm confident if we redirected all of them to your border you would change your tune pretty damn fast.
To my border? I live in L.A. I must see dozens of illegal immigrants everyday. I frankly don't see many problems attributable purely to illegal immigrants.

And for the record. I'm pro immigration. I'm pro guest workers. America's greatest resource is its people and that includes immigrants from all over the world.

I see nothing wrong with setting immigration goals and laws and to ensure that we have control over the number of people who enter our nation. I'll never understand why some people have a problem with that. Especially people who live in nations that don't have the problems that we do. I wish like hell they would volunteer to take the excess. But then we all know that isn't going to happen. Much easier to simply criticize Americans for wanting to control our borders and reduce the level of illegal immigration.
I guess I'm pro immigrant. I'm also pro free market. And the market has set it's own de facto guest worker program.

Should the government set immigration goals and controls? It already does, and to what effect? Why would you trust the government to do this job well when it's performance in the area is so poor. And a good thing, too, because if we had to rely on the govt to supply the labor force we need, it would be with higher cost in wages, bureaucracy, taxes, intrusiveness, all passed on to consumers nationwide. And the trauma centers would still be closing.
 
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Trauma centers all over are closing because of the poor state of the health care system. More people underinsured, using emergency rooms as primary care, at higher rates, which they can't pay, and is eventually written off until they cannot stay open any longer. The problem would probably remain even if our illegal workers had "guest' status.
Actually no. Trauma centers are closing as a result of illegal immigration. This is no longer a subject of debate.

Patients Crossing Our Borders: An Ethical or Economic Conundrum?

Is it so clear? Given the numbers of illegal immigrants supposed to be in the country for so long, with employment rates hovering around the mid single digits, and the quality of life in the US is probably higher than ever, it's hard to say there's too much of a problem. It would seem that the presumably underground labor pool made up by illegal immigrants is a net posititve on the economy.
No, not at all. This notion has been thoroughly debunked.

To my border? I live in L.A. I must see dozens of illegal immigrants everyday. I frankly don't see many problems attributable purely to illegal immigrants.
I edited before you responded. My apology.

I guess I'm pro immigrant. I'm also pro free market. And the market has set it's own de facto guest worker program.
And it is demonstrably hurting us. It governments job to secure our borders. That they are failing is no reason to believe that can't do the job if they so choose.

Should the government set immigration goals and controls? It already does, and to what effect? Why would you trust the government to do this job well when it's performance in the area is so poor. And a good thing, too, because if we had to rely on the govt to supply the labor force we need, it would be with higher cost in wages, bureaucracy, taxes, intrusiveness, all passed on to consumers nationwide. And the trauma centers would still be closing.
Specious.
 
The above link is no longer available without registration. Use this one instead. The jury is in and it is demonstrable that the net cost is significant.

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

State's "cheap labor" costs average household $1,183 a year
Dateline: December, 2004

In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR.

"Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide.

"Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens," said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy.

"Nothing could more starkly illustrate the very high costs of ‘cheap labor' than California's current situation," continued Stein. "A small number of powerful interests in the state reap the benefits, while the average native-born family in California gets handed a nearly $1,200 a year bill." The Federation for American Immigration Reform is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year.
 
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Actually no. Trauma centers are closing as a result of illegal immigration. This is no longer a subject of debate.

Patients Crossing Our Borders: An Ethical or Economic Conundrum?

Got the text for this one?

No, not at all. This notion has been thoroughly debunked.

Take cis.org with a grain of salt. The seem to take a overall dim view of immigration, legal or not.


And it is demonstrably hurting us. It governments job to secure our borders. That they are failing is no reason to believe that can't do the job if they so choose.

Specious.

Specious in what way? Does the govt not already set immigration goals and laws and to ensure that we have control over the number of people who enter our nation? What effects do these goals and laws seem to have on illegal immigration?

Is a guest worker program truly viable? What would it take to make it so?

Answer these questions honestly.
 

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