A black American decended from an Irish warlord

[UnrepentantSinner]

Sigh, I never got around to starting this thread after the second airing, which I assumed was going to continue tonight on PBS, so I'm talking about history in the past tense and not in an attempt to be ironic.

When I saw the ads for African American Lives 2, I was interested, but figured it would be a mildly interesting melange of interviews, ship manifests and slave narratives. Some of the interviews were with some of black personalities who were people I respected so I tuned in - actors Don Cheadle, Morgan Freeman, comedian Chris Rock, singer Tina Turner, poet Maya Angelu, radio host Tom Joyner and athelete Jackie Joyner-Kersee (along with a few others I was unfamiliar with).

The series took a fascinating turn along the way. It did start with family lore, censuses, ship manifests and slave narratives, but host Henry Louis Gates Jr. took that information and added something that Alex Haley could only have dreamed of when he wrote Roots - DNA.

A number of the participants in the series assumed they had Native American ancestry which explained their lighter skin, but the DNA tests showed almost all of them had between 2 and 0 % Indian blood in them. Instead the evidence showed a number of white European ancestors, including the Irish Warlord mentioned in the thread title. While Gates isn't quite what you'd think of as a "black Irish", it turned out that was part of his ancestry and his visit to the Emrald Isle was a very interesting segment.

The DNA analysis got more interesting when Gates and the production team started analyzing the genes of the participants to see where they came from in Africa the results were as diverse as Senegamiba, Cameroon and Mozambique on the east coast. IIRC, it was Morgan Freeman who was desended from tribes in Mali and who seemed to recall the tribes his DNA connected him to mentioning hearing about them.

This was an excellent series and I hope any of you who are interested in history, human evolution or what DNA tells us about the past will at least check out the website and watch it if it ever reairs.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

The series took a fascinating turn along the way. It did start with family lore, censuses, ship manifests and slave narratives, but host Henry Louis Gates Jr. took that information and added something that Alex Haley could only have dreamed of when he wrote Roots - DNA.

A number of the participants in the series assumed they had Native American ancestry which explained their lighter skin, but the DNA tests showed almost all of them had between 2 and 0 % Indian blood in them. Instead the evidence showed a number of white European ancestors, including the Irish Warlord mentioned in the thread title. While Gates isn't quite what you'd think of as a "black Irish", it turned out that was part of his ancestry and his visit to the Emrald Isle was a very interesting segment.

The DNA analysis got more interesting when Gates and the production team started analyzing the genes of the participants to see where they came from in Africa the results were as diverse as Senegamiba, Cameroon and Mozambique on the east coast. IIRC, it was Morgan Freeman who was desended from tribes in Mali and who seemed to recall the tribes his DNA connected him to mentioning hearing about them.

This was an excellent series and I hope any of you who are interested in history, human evolution or what DNA tells us about the past will at least check out the website and watch it if it ever reairs.

That was fascinating. I only caught part of the DNA segment, but I was surprised when Gates was told of his Irish ancestry. And his attempt to stomach Guiness was amusing.

Anyway, I think I want to get more into what they did to determine the "mix" of DNA heritage they found for everyone; that means I'm going to have to dig into the videos PBS posted. Will do that when I get a chance.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

That was fascinating. I only caught part of the DNA segment, but I was surprised when Gates was told of his Irish ancestry. And his attempt to stomach Guiness was amusing.

Anyway, I think I want to get more into what they did to determine the "mix" of DNA heritage they found for everyone; that means I'm going to have to dig into the videos PBS posted. Will do that when I get a chance.

I think it's a matter of comparing markers which are present in certain population groups with samples given and then determining percentages. I'll have to rewatch the videos myself again for more details.

Also there's a Wiki article on the series with links to a number of reviews in media outlets for anyone who didn't see the series.

 

[chris epic]

A number of the participants in the series assumed they had Native American ancestry which explained their lighter skin, but the DNA tests showed almost all of them had between 2 and 0 % Indian blood in them.

Hmmm. I had never made that assertion. I had always assumed that the "lighter" skin in many African-Americans was because of European-American blood.

Why do you suppose the American-Indian assumption was made? Because African-Americans assumed that European-Americans were too racist or prejudice to reproduce with African-Americans?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hmmm. I had never made that assertion. I had always assumed that the "lighter" skin in many African-Americans was because of European-American blood.

Why do you suppose the American-Indian assumption was made? Because African-Americans assumed that European-Americans were too racist or prejudice to reproduce with African-Americans?

I'd need to watch the segments/interviews again, but I think it was a combination of the idealized Native Americans as peaceful co-habitators of the land occupied by slave masters (when a number of NA groups kept slaves even after the Emancipation Proclimation) vs. the prejudice that whites who fathered (or mothered in some cases as the DNA showed) slave children would have considered them chattel rather than progeny, while a number of the great-great grandfathers lived with their slave "wives", freed their half-slave children and bequeathed land to them.

There was a fascinating social dance that occured depending on where the parties in question lived for almost two centuries.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Yeah, US pretty much sums up what I recall from the program (gotta watch it again!). There was a certain romance about having Native American blood mixed in with the African heritage, partially being due to the notion that the NAs were a free, independent people, and for most tribes, had a warrior tradition as well. Some of the interviewees basically came out and said as much.

 

[Madalch]

Also, if a slave owner uses a female slave for pleasure, we would consider that rape. Nobody wants to consider that they owe their existence to the fact that great-great granny was raped, or that great-great-grandpa was indeed a rapist, regardless of how well he treated his slaves or the resulting children.

 

[chris epic]

I'd need to watch the segments/interviews again, but I think it was a combination of the idealized Native Americans as peaceful co-habitators of the land occupied by slave masters (when a number of NA groups kept slaves even after the Emancipation Proclimation) vs. the prejudice that whites who fathered (or mothered in some cases as the DNA showed) slave children would have considered them chattel rather than progeny, while a number of the great-great grandfathers lived with their slave "wives", freed their half-slave children and bequeathed land to them.

There was a fascinating social dance that occured depending on where the parties in question lived for almost two centuries.

Native Americans kept slaves???

There isn't a chance I can find this show on the web, is there?

 

[chris epic]

Also, if a slave owner uses a female slave for pleasure, we would consider that rape.

Well, I'm not sure that could be an entirely accurate assumption. There were consensual sexual relationships between slave owners and slaves. Thomas Jefferson. (I don't know if that's rumor or historical).

But I'm not dismissing that rape didn't happen. And I'm not marginalizing the rape, either, so please don't take me the wrong way.

 

[-Fran-]

Native Americans kept slaves???

As far as I know they did. Though in many tribes slavery might have looked a bit different than how slavery in USA worked. I know I've read several articles about this, as well as about slavery among the Aztec, Incas and Mayas... but it was a long time ago, and I don't remember any details anymore. I'm sure there are plenty of information out there on this though. I think there probably hasn't been many, if any cultures on earth that hasn't, at some point in history, been a slave culture, though the slavery in itself has worked in different ways.

 

[chris epic]

As far as I know they did. Though in many tribes slavery might have looked a bit different than how slavery in USA worked. I know I've read several articles about this, as well as about slavery among the Aztec, Incas and Mayas... but it was a long time ago, and I don't remember any details anymore. I'm sure there are plenty of information out there on this though. I think there probably hasn't been many, if any cultures on earth that hasn't, at some point in history, been a slave culture, though the slavery in itself has worked in different ways.

Oh, I was asking if NA kept African slaves. But, sure. I've discussed in other places how the Pro-Colonial Filipinos had a cultural slavery that was more like "labor to pay off debts."

 

[-Fran-]

Oh, I was asking if NA kept African slaves.

Yes, seems in a few cases they did as well, apart from older slave traditions that existed before.

But, sure. I've discussed in other places how the Pro-Colonial Filipinos had a cultural slavery that was more like "labor to pay off debts."

Yes, slavery comes in many forms, some harsher than others, I suppose.

 

[Madalch]

Well, I'm not sure that could be an entirely accurate assumption. There were consensual sexual relationships between slave owners and slaves.

That would depend on your definition of consent.

If the person asking for sex has the legal ability to have you flogged at whim, is it really consent? It might have been considered just fine then, but from a modern perspective (and we are talking about a modern perspective, of people looking at their ancestors), I'd find it disturbing.

 

[chris epic]

That would depend on your definition of consent.

If the person asking for sex has the legal ability to have you flogged at whim, is it really consent? It might have been considered just fine then, but from a modern perspective (and we are talking about a modern perspective, of people looking at their ancestors), I'd find it disturbing.

Well, I guess, eventually, we could end up illustrating the many ways sex could have taken place between slave and master and not be off-base.

I was going even further into the psyche of men and women and their nature. There could have been sympathy. There could have been passion. There could have been lust (even from the slave). Humans are strange.

 

[godofpie]

Oh, I was asking if NA kept African slaves. But, sure. I've discussed in other places how the Pro-Colonial Filipinos had a cultural slavery that was more like "labor to pay off debts."

The show did say that Native Americans kept slaves. It also said that some tribes would capture runaway slaves and return them to there masters. Chris Rock said something very quotable, as usual, and I can't remember what he said exactly. It was something to the effect that the story was easier to swallow that the reason great grandma had that straight black hair was that there was some indian blood in her rather than the whole slave/master idea.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Native Americans kept slaves???

There isn't a chance I can find this show on the web, is there?

You could start with this bit on Wiki that's consistent with what they said on the show about the Cherokees, especially in Indian Territory.

 

[chris epic]

...was that there was some indian blood in her...

You will find, in the mid-west and west, that white people are even known to claim this.

It's usually laughed upon by Native Americans because, for one, there usually isn't any proof, just generational rumor. And, when a white person says they have some Native American in them, it's consistently described as "1/8 or 1/16 Cherokee."

Even our family was subject to that rumor (my mother being from Oklahoma). I would say, as a child, "I am 1/16 Cherokee!" But all we have to go off of is a 100 year-old photograph of a great-great grandmother that "kind of resembles a native American." But that's pretty much it.

 

[JQH]

Claims of Native American ancestry are wider afield than that! One set of my great-great grandparents were in the Canadian West in the 1870s. They returned to the UK which was a bit unusual at the time. According to my grandfather. great-great granny had an encounter with a Native American.

Mind you, grandad never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Claims of Native American ancestry are wider afield than that! One set of my great-great grandparents were in the Canadian West in the 1870s. They returned to the UK which was a bit unusual at the time. According to my grandfather. great-great granny had an encounter with a Native American.

Mind you, grandad never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I've got one too, including a name Breedlove. And that brings us back to what made AAL2 so interesting to me - DNA tests are cheaper than ever and collecting a sample takes less time than properly brushing your teeth. For people that think they have Native ancestry, like the folks on the show or well... us, the confirmation of family myths is just a cheek swab away.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

African American Lives 2 is being released on DVD next week. Rent it if you get a chance.