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9-11-2011 Pacifica Radio-Griffin,Ryan,Kay,Stollznow,Gage,Harrit,Thomas, Mueller

RedIbis said:
Is this supposed to be funny? Regardless of difference of opinion it's bad form to joke about serious health problems. He's an older gentleman who has apparently recovered from some very serious health issues, you might suspend your partisan hackery and show a bit of class.
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Irony-796569.jpg



Griffin is a liar and a fraud. His bad health is just Karma.
 
chrismohr said:
And P.S I researched Harritt's chain of custody and even talked personally to people involved with the dust transfers, rejecting dust samples that had any doubt around them etc I believe Harrit et al deserve credit for doing everything in their power to preserve the integrity of the chain of custody of the dust given the inherent limitations of their access to NIST's or RJ Lee's samples.
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I disagree. the samples Jones tested at BYU all came through his hands (I have confirmed this with Jeffrey Farrer by email).
The correct procedure would have been for an unimpeachable independent third part to take custody of them and then make them and control samples available to anyone that wanted to test them in a double blind test. That way those testing would not know whether or not they had the genuine dust or a control and no personal bias could have resulted.

You may trust Jones not to have contaminated them. I, for one, do not.
Now I agree I doubt he had the expertise to have actually done so (given the shoddy work in the paper) but we cannot know for certain either way so those samples are valueless now for further work.
 
Ask Gage how he sleeps at night knowing that he receives monies in the name of 9/11 without providing any sort of service or benefit to those directly affected by the tragedy.
 
RedIbis said:
Is this supposed to be funny? Regardless of difference of opinion it's bad form to joke about serious health problems. He's an older gentleman who has apparently recovered from some very serious health issues, you might suspend your partisan hackery and show a bit of class.
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I agree. That's the most sensible post I've seem you write.
 
chrismohr said:
And P.S I researched Harritt's chain of custody and even talked personally to people involved with the dust transfers, rejecting dust samples that had any doubt around them etc I believe Harrit et al deserve credit for doing everything in their power to preserve the integrity of the chain of custody of the dust given the inherent limitations of their access to NIST's or RJ Lee's samples.
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I second that. This should be one of those points of agreement that Chris says Dave should offer to his opponents. And also the analysis data of chips a-d - that's good and fine data: The photomicrographs, the XEDS spectra, the energy release...

That data strongly supports a conclusion of paint, quite specifically: LaClede standard primer, used by LaClede steel company on the floor trusses. That's a different manufacturer, and a different paint, from the columns. Harrit tested column primer, and yes, another agreement, these chips a-d are not column primer.

Ask Harrit if he found Iron Oxide. Yes, he will agree.
Ask him, if that iron oxide is specifically Fe2O3, and crystals of hematite. He should agree.
Ask him if he found about as much Silicon as Aluminium. He should agree with that.
Ask if he sees stacks of (possibly hexagonal) tiny platelike crystals.
Ask him if he is aware that there is a mineral called Kaolinite, which is an aluminium silicate that contains as much silicon as aluminium and appears, on microscopic scale, as stacks of pseudohexagonal platelike crystals. He shout either agree, or admit that he knows nothing about such minerals - which would disqualify him. If he agrees, ask if he is aware that Kaolinite is often used in paints. Ask him if the stacks of thin plates that he sees in his own micrographs match kaolinite. If not ask him which other crystal structure looks like that (elemental aluminium sure doesn't).
Ask if he found plenty of C. Well, he should agree, at least that there is an organic matrix.
Ask if he found traces of Chromium and Strontium. He should, because in his own whitepaper WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT he presents a more detailed XEDS graph for chip a that has small peaks for Cr and Sr. He should agree to that - it's his own paper revealing that.

Now tell him what LaClede standard primer is, according to the specifications back in the late 60s:
- Pigment: 28.5% total, of which
- - 55% iron oxide (check - Harrit should have agreed to that)
- - 41% aluminium silicate (check - kaolinite seen, Al, Si detected in equal amounts)
- - 4% strontium chromate (check - small signal for Sr and Cr)
- Vehicle: 71.5% total, mainly epoxy amine, which is mainly C, O and H (check - Harrit admits to organic matrix)

This primer paint also explains the grey layer: It's simly oxidized iron. The stuff that primer gets painted on.

Ask Harrit if he has a different, better explanation for the grey layer.
Ask him if he has a different, better explanation for Silicon. (No, silicon is not typically used in nanothermitic composites; Tillotson, in the paper referemced by Harrit's Bentham paper, mentions addition of SiO only as something that lowers energy density and speed of reaction).

His fall-back will be the appearance of iron-rich microspheres after burn tests. Problem is: Iron is present in the gray layer from the beginning!

Oh, and yes, paint burns. Plausibly around 450°C.
 
sheeplesnshills said:
I disagree. the samples Jones tested at BYU all came through his hands (I have confirmed this with Jeffrey Farrer by email).
The correct procedure would have been for an unimpeachable independent third part to take custody of them and then make them and control samples available to anyone that wanted to test them in a double blind test. That way those testing would not know whether or not they had the genuine dust or a control and no personal bias could have resulted.

You may trust Jones not to have contaminated them. I, for one, do not.
Now I agree I doubt he had the expertise to have actually done so (given the shoddy work in the paper) but we cannot know for certain either way so those samples are valueless now for further work.
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And I disagree, again, with you: Their data is brilliant evidence for the primer paint from WTC floor trusses.
There is no need to assume evil conduct here. That's a Poisoning the Well logical fallacy.
 
Here's one:

"Mr. Gage, can you explain for us the critical difference between a building falling into its footprint and one falling onto its footprint?? How, for example, does it change the direction of the building's descent? And why have you deliberately misinformed the millions of Americans who can't look at the videos themselves by using the word 'into'"? Have you no shame??"
 
Oystein said:
I second that. This should be one of those points of agreement that Chris says Dave should offer to his opponents. And also the analysis data of chips a-d - that's good and fine data: The photomicrographs, the XEDS spectra, the energy release...

That data strongly supports a conclusion of paint, quite specifically: LaClede standard primer, used by LaClede steel company on the floor trusses. That's a different manufacturer, and a different paint, from the columns. Harrit tested column primer, and yes, another agreement, these chips a-d are not column primer.

Ask Harrit if he found Iron Oxide. Yes, he will agree.
Ask him, if that iron oxide is specifically Fe2O3, and crystals of hematite. He should agree.
Ask him if he found about as much Silicon as Aluminium. He should agree with that.
Ask if he sees stacks of (possibly hexagonal) tiny platelike crystals.
Ask him if he is aware that there is a mineral called Kaolinite, which is an aluminium silicate that contains as much silicon as aluminium and appears, on microscopic scale, as stacks of pseudohexagonal platelike crystals. He shout either agree, or admit that he knows nothing about such minerals - which would disqualify him. If he agrees, ask if he is aware that Kaolinite is often used in paints. Ask him if the stacks of thin plates that he sees in his own micrographs match kaolinite. If not ask him which other crystal structure looks like that (elemental aluminium sure doesn't).
Ask if he found plenty of C. Well, he should agree, at least that there is an organic matrix.
Ask if he found traces of Chromium and Strontium. He should, because in his own whitepaper WHY THE RED/GRAY CHIPS ARE NOT PRIMER PAINT he presents a more detailed XEDS graph for chip a that has small peaks for Cr and Sr. He should agree to that - it's his own paper revealing that.

Now tell him what LaClede standard primer is, according to the specifications back in the late 60s:
- Pigment: 28.5% total, of which
- - 55% iron oxide (check - Harrit should have agreed to that)
- - 41% aluminium silicate (check - kaolinite seen, Al, Si detected in equal amounts)
- - 4% strontium chromate (check - small signal for Sr and Cr)
- Vehicle: 71.5% total, mainly epoxy amine, which is mainly C, O and H (check - Harrit admits to organic matrix)

This primer paint also explains the grey layer: It's simly oxidized iron. The stuff that primer gets painted on.

Ask Harrit if he has a different, better explanation for the grey layer.
Ask him if he has a different, better explanation for Silicon. (No, silicon is not typically used in nanothermitic composites; Tillotson, in the paper referemced by Harrit's Bentham paper, mentions addition of SiO only as something that lowers energy density and speed of reaction).

His fall-back will be the appearance of iron-rich microspheres after burn tests. Problem is: Iron is present in the gray layer from the beginning!

Oh, and yes, paint burns. Plausibly around 450°C.
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Oystein....good summary...

Well done sir...
 
Sunstealer said:
Ask why they support the thermite hyposthesis when their own data shows that their "thermitic material" only contains 1.68% Aluminium by weight. Surely a very inefficient thermite because it contains next to none of the reactive materials required for the job.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=181&pictureid=4865[/qimg]

from http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AJ7hXrmMRPc#! 39.30 mins.
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1.68 % ? BWAH! ROFL ROFL

And THIS is why I can't read any of Sunstealers posts on this topic while eating or drinking....

lol
 
Sunstealer said:
Ask why they support the thermite hyposthesis when their own data shows that their "thermitic material" only contains 1.68% Aluminium by weight. Surely a very inefficient thermite because it contains next to none of the reactive materials required for the job.
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Yaaah. Or... Sunstealer could ask Harrit himself.

http://nano.ku.dk/english/NSC

Kind of a big boo-boo for an expert in nano-chemistry to miss, wouldn't you say? Go git him, Sunstealer!
 
DaveThomasNMSR said:
Here's some information sent to the debaters by moderator Mickey Huff. Judging from these stage-setting comments, the hosts certainly appear to favor the truthiness side of things. Ah well, into the Lion's Den we go!
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Reading about Mickey Huff, he loves his woo. Your moderator is a truther. good luck
 
Oystein said:
And I disagree, again, with you: Their data is brilliant evidence for the primer paint from WTC floor trusses.
There is no need to assume evil conduct here. That's a Poisoning the Well logical fallacy.
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Oh I agree, just pointing out that any claim for their materials provenance is dubious at best and would not likely stand up in any court. They poisoned that well themselves.
 
I stopped listening to NYC Pacifica radio when they cancelled the late-night show that dealt with railroad time tables and other railroad-oriented topics. Sounds boring, but it was actually pretty interesting and often quite funny.
 
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sheeplesnshills said:
Oh I agree, just pointing out that any claim for their materials provenance is dubious at best and would not likely stand up in any court. They poisoned that well themselves.
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sheeplesnshills, let's see where you and I are on the issue, shall we?

Please venture a bold guess: What is, in your opinion, the probability that the red-grey chips are in fact dust from the crushed twin towers?

- 0%
- 5%
- 20%
- 50%
- 80%
- 95%
- 100%
Pick one, or give me your own best guess. But please, don't give me a range like "20 to 70%".

Remember, scientific consensus is not reached in courts of law! We are not in court, and no one is going to take anyone to court. Our side isn't, and you realize of course that no one in Harrit's or Gage's camp is actually ever going to sue anyone at all. For FSM's sake, they are not even ever going to submit their stupid petition to Congress! So don't argue with speculation about courts - courts are irrelevant.


ETA: I'd pick 95%. That migh not suffice to put anyone in jail, but it is conventionally a measure of scientific (well, statistical) confidence.
 
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Oystein said:
sheeplesnshills, let's see where you and I are on the issue, shall we?

Please venture a bold guess: What is, in your opinion, the probability that the red-grey chips are in fact dust from the crushed twin towers?

- 0%
- 5%
- 20%
- 50%
- 80%
- 95%
- 100%
Pick one, or give me your own best guess. But please, don't give me a range like "20 to 70%".

Remember, scientific consensus is not reached in courts of law! We are not in court, and no one is going to take anyone to court. Our side isn't, and you realize of course that no one in Harrit's or Gage's camp is actually ever going to sue anyone at all. For FSM's sake, they are not even ever going to submit their stupid petition to Congress! So don't argue with speculation about courts - courts are irrelevant.


ETA: I'd pick 95%. That migh not suffice to put anyone in jail, but it is conventionally a measure of scientific (well, statistical) confidence.
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You STILL have not answered the question of WHY there was nano-thermite in the WTC dust!


:D
 
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