12 Step Programs and Atheism

[Zero]

Ok, boys and girls, here's a bit of a dilemma for me:

My girlfriend is an alcoholic, and she and others suggested I attend Al-Anon meetings to sort through my end of her recovery process. Since I am an atheist, however, I don't think I can so the whole 'higher power' business...any thoughts?

 

[Dymanic]

Don't worry about the 'higher power' business yet. That doesn't have to be any bigger an obstacle than you make it. Did you see this thread?

Al-Anon isn't about sorting through your end of someone else's problem. It's about sorting through how alcoholism affects your life. I've seen people who were active in Al-Anon for years and still didn't really get that. The standard joke in AA about this is: "They're sicker than we are".

 

[T'ai Chi]

The higher power is anything that is higher than you and more powerful.. so how about an eagle or an airplane or a star?

 

[BillyJoe]

My wife used to have a tendency to get drunk. I used to say to her: "I'll be there when you are sick. I'll comfort you when you are sad. But when you're drunk I'll put you out with the cat."

 

[Ralph]

A lot of people use "The God Thing" as an excuse to keep using
and this is a very common issue.

I remember how much I was hurting because of my abuse of drugs and alcohol. All I wanted was for the pain to stop.
As much as I wanted to believe a diety would take away my desire to use------In my heart--I just couldn't believe it.

It was suggested to me to simply use the other members in AA/NA as a higher powerinstead of God. While some invisible being in the sky might not help.....these people certainly would.

I have close to 10 years clean & sober and as far as I know---no diety was involved. I do however, owe much to other drunks & addicts who helped me learn how to live sober.

Hopefully--she won't let her atheism be a barrier to sobriety..........

 

[Ladyhawk]

Hey, Zero.....

It really comes down to how much you want to help her, doesn't it? Every atheist is confronted each day with religious references. I mean, we don't avoid driving down streets with churches, right? People still say "God bless you" when we sneeze or have done them a favor and we don't stone them.

You know as well as I do that you're participation in AA and your girlfriend's recovery is important and is not the least bit indicative of your acceptance or rejection of a god as a higher power. You can do this if you feel it's worth the effort. And only you can be the judge of that.

Let's put it this way....if I were in a serious accident, I sure wouldn't ask the ambulance driver to bypass the nearest hospital just because it was St. Something . If you really think AA can help her, then go to the meetings and support her and just turn a deaf ear to the higher power references.

Good luck to both of you!

 

[Mona]

The higher power is anything that is higher than you and more powerful.. so how about an eagle or an airplane or a star?

I think of this as the 12 Step Bait and Switch ploy. Yes, members will tell you HP can be anything, but almost all of ones fellow religious group members will behave as if their HP is a supernatural, interventionist god, a premise virtually the entire group shares; the peer pressure can be unpleasant. And of course, the program is incoherent without such a god.

In Step 2, people are to come to believe that this HP can "restore them to sanity"; in Step 3, they are to "turn their lives and wills over to the care" of a god they understand; in Step 5 they admit to a god their wrongs; In Step 6 the person prepares for god to remove all these character defects; in Step 7 god is asked to remove them; in Step 11 one is to seek "prayer and meditation [and]conscious contact with god" and ask to "know his [sic] will."

Now, an eagle, airplanes etc. cannot remove shortcomings, they do not have a will and cannot care for mine or yours, and do not restore people to sanity. The HP required for coherence by the Steps is a personal, interventionist god remarkably like the Xian one from which he is directly modeled by the founders. At meetings of 12 Step groups, the preponderant tradition is to close with the Lord's Prayer.

I know some non-theistic people who managed to use a 12 Step program merely for the social support for whatever their problem is. But some simply cannot hack the pervasive religiosity (which they insist in The Program is mere "spirituality"). In multiple jurisdictions courts have ruled it is unconstitutional for judges, probation officers or parole boards to coerce anyone to attend 12 Step programs precisely because of the enormous religious component therein.

 

[Mona]

A lot of people use "The God Thing" as an excuse to keep using
and this is a very common issue.

I am genuinely happy that you were able to make a success of AA/NA notwithstanding your non-theism. However, it is attitudes such as yours that so many find patronizing and intolerant in that program. I know, for a fact, that the "God thing" is not an "excuse" for a lot of people who simply cannot abide the heavy theology and religiosity of 12 Step programs, coupled with what is frequently an attendant, strong peer pressure to "do God." Some of these seekers have gone on to success in places like this: Lifering Secular Recovery

 

[Dancing David]

Wow, wonder of wonder miracles of miracles... and then they say something about god, and every warning signal of irrational behavior goes 'ding', and my defenses go up to maximum. As a 'helping' professional' and a human I have had frequent immersion in the waters of 'recovery'.

[ramble]
The simple truth is that the key of 'unrecovery' is denial, and if you have been involved in a 'denial-based system' then the consequences of overcoming denial will be as great as the consequences anyone overcoming living in a denial based system of communications. As I have heard myself say many a time, "the only person that you are denying the truth to is yourself", and the result of that is only one thing.

Not talking about the 'truth' is the active force in any 'denial-based system' and for the players in a denial based system 'not talking rules' are the ones that allow the active players to maintain the system of denial-based choices. Family systems that are based upon the No Talikng Rule are frequently based in 'shame-based systems', 'family history of abuse' and family history of 'power and control issues'. 'Nuff Said !?

If you are involved in any system that is involved in you overcoming 'issues in your life' then it is essential to be in a system that 'rewards you for telling the truth' and being in a system that says you 'absolutely must put your faith in God' makes you think that you are in a denial based system and that you are about to be 'fed' a 'cart full of utter bullshine'.

And the truth about recovery is that it involves 'telling the truth' and to do that you have to do it in an enviroment where you feel 'safe'. Because you have to be safe in any group of people involved in 'thier recovery', you have to find the systems and groups that are safe for you! In 'twelve step programs' this is reffered to as the mystical quest of 'your home group'. And it is the key to 'recovery' because if you feel you can't tell the truth, then 'you are not going to go anywhere'.

This is even more difficult for those who are not 'the primary locus of control in a denial based system' and as such there are 'many more reasons' as a 'submissive player' in a 'denial-based' systems may have difficulty 'telling the truth' because there may be 'severe consequences' for 'breaking the rules' in the denial based system.

And as such if you are involved in any sort of 'recovery' as some sort of innocent bystander who is involved in a 'train wreck' of a 'family based interaction', IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT YOU BE ABLE TO TO THE TRUTH AS YOU SEE IT!

WHAT AM I SHOUTING/?

Oh, sorry about that, but as a bystander, passive player or freaking survivor of a 'denial based system' of a 'family train wreck' it is essential that people be allowed to speak the truth as they see it. So that means that you will have to find a home group that speaks thier minds the way that you speak your mind, and that may mean searching for many different ways to take care of yourself.

If you speak your own truth you will immedeatly know if you are in a 'denial based system'. What I fould useful at twelve step meetings was this :
wherever they say Higher Power you say 'doing something other than what got me here in the first place'
and whenever they talk about submiting to higher power you put 'telling the truth'
and where ever they say Turning My Life Over to a Higher Power you just say 'taking care of myself'.

I 'kin garuntee' that if you learn to tell the truth that it will help you in your 'recovery'. And it just means learning to 'bite your tounge' until you 'find your home group' while you learn to think 'a better way of doing things' every time they say 'Higher Power, the program, and/or God'. And if you just think 'telling the truth' where ever they say 'turning my life over to my higher power, working the steps, really doing the program'.

Of course you have to be careful about you tell the truth when you think that god, religion and spirituality are a some sort of 'denial-based' system.

Peace
[/ramble]

 

[Zero]

Hey everyone, thanks for the posts...


She's doing well, she's 4 years sober, but she still has stuff going on, and I guess I'm supposed to join this Al-Anon stuff to make sure I'm ok too. The thing is, I want to do it right, but it seems overburdened with religious thinking. It seems sort of bullsh*t, you know? I don't know that I could actively participate in it when I find it to be ridiculous. I'm coming from the place that Mona talks about(thanks), where it seems like thinly veiled Christianity. From the Al-Anon website:

2. For our group purpose there is but one authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants— they do not govern.

Sounds like a church, doesn't it? That doesn't sound like you are talking about an eagle or a star.

 

[Zero]

More importantly, to me it feels like these 12-step programs are all about transfering the addictive or other negative behaviour into a more 'benign' but just as controlling idea. I understand all about the idea of not trying to control everything, and just accepting thingsfor what they are, but for me that includes avoiding any sort of pseudo-religious thinking as well.

 

[Mona]

She's doing well, she's 4 years sober, but she still has stuff going on, and I guess I'm supposed to join this Al-Anon stuff to make sure I'm ok too. The thing is, I want to do it right, but it seems overburdened with religious thinking.

But do you feel you need a support group? My discomfort with what you report-- and it is not uncommon -- is that 12 Step programs have become so pervasive they now have one for some 200 different issues/disorders. What this has done is casued the theology, tenets, slogans and evolving mores and doctrines of the 12 Step cult/religious movement to essentailly saturate the United States. Basically, in the eyes of many, everyone "needs" the Steps.

AA, of course, was the first 12 Step program, founded by Bill Wilson (and his pal Dr. Bob) in the 1930s. Wilson had a religious experience while drying out in the hosptial, and thereupon joined a then-popular "cult" known as The Oxford Movement. Initially, he tried to reach other "alcoholics" via Oxford, which was not at all just for alcoholism. After a few years, however, he rewrote the Xian tenets of Oxford, making them somewhat more ecumenical and adopting euphemisms like "character defects" for "sin"; AA then became a group just for those struggling with alcohol.

Wislon was a very smart man, and was familiar with the writing of psychologist/philosopher William James, who took a pragmatic view that conversion experiences could be used to overcome unhealthy habits. (There is ample evidence that this is true for some people.) Wilson explicitly founded AA on the "conversion experience" model, and all of the 12 Step programs follow it.

For those who want it, great. But it is not right for everyone, and I wish members would be more honest about the nature of their program.

 

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by Dancing David


And the truth about recovery is that it involves 'telling the truth' and to do that you have to do it in an enviroment where you feel 'safe'.

I agree with that enthusiastically. I think this is 'the missing reading' (WHY it works).

Originally posted by Mona

I know, for a fact, that the "God thing" is not an "excuse" for a lot of people who simply cannot abide the heavy theology and religiosity of 12 Step programs, coupled with what is frequently an attendant, strong peer pressure to "do God."

A lot of people don't need an excuse -- they don't have a problem. Those that do -- and that want recovery -- face some difficult work. Listening to the crap about Gawd is the least of it. Creative excuse-making is typically part of the pattern, often reaching the level of an art form. It might be child care issues, scheduling difficulties, commuting expenses, lack of parking, fear of mugging, or a sudden resolve to tackle some urgent task, but whatever it is, it's always something. Thing is, we all do it. Because we all do it, it's easy for us to spot when others are doing it, especially once we get to know each other. As members of a support group, one of the things rely on the others for is to call us out on that sort of thing. Of course, because these others are not perfect either, it is quite possible that, because of their own issues, they may derive an inappropriate measure of satisfaction from this process (but that doesn't necessarily keep it from being effective!).

For those who want it, great. But it is not right for everyone, and I wish members would be more honest about the nature of their program.

Now you want honesty...from drunks and dope fiends. Honestly, I'm not sure what the heck it's all about, but I know it worked for me, and since I'm an atheist, I don't think it was God. Something about...belonging.

Originally posted by Zero

More importantly, to me it feels like these 12-step programs are all about transfering the addictive or other negative behaviour into a more 'benign' but just as controlling idea

I'd say there is a certain amount of truth to that, but it isn't the whole story. I don't see how a feeling of what the program is all about could possibly be complete and accurate prior to actual participation in it. I have yet to meet a single person whose preconcieved ideas about that were confirmed by that experience.

Just go, dude. If you don't like it, quit. What's the big deal?

 

[Mona]

I think this is 'the missing reading' (WHY it works).

A lot of people don't need an excuse -- they don't have a problem. Those that do -- and that want recovery -- face some difficult work. Listening to the crap about Gawd is the least of it. Creative excuse-making is typically part of the pattern, often reaching the level of an art form.

Many human beings will find reasons not to do things that will help them; it is common knowledge among those related to, or who work with, the mentally ill that they (the mentally ill) often will not take their meds, won't go to their shrink & etc. But that is a distinct issue from being told, as people are, that it is "AA on the one hand, or jails, death and institutions on the other," and fearfully nevertheless having to reject AA due to the smothering religiosity.

It can freak a person out to believe AA is the *only hope they have (which is frequently told to people in treatment and by therapists), only to find that if one is going to use AA one is going to be participating in religious services at which a sacred text is read and revered, and where everything good and true that happens is attributed to a Higher Power, and where it is a great taboo to claim credit for anything one has done or achieved -- all praise must go to HP/God and/or the group. I submit it is beyond reasonable for the kinds of people who post on a board like this to feel completely and utterly alientated in such a milieu. Excuse-making is not -- or certainly not necessarily -- implicated.

And yes, I do ask for honesty from people, whether they have a history of drug/alcohol abuse or not. If people in AA are "working such a good program," one would think their character defects have been resolved sufficiently (removed by their god) that they could tell newcomers the truth, to wit: that AA is predicated on a religious conversion experience and that most members, and the sacred text, do not embrace non-theists as anything but misguided folks who are not right yet. People will often rise to expectations; in AA/NA it is a truism that everyone there lies "because they are drunks/addicts," even long after they have quit. This is group-think that can be harmful. In any event, and to repeat, yes, members owe newcomers the truth.

 

[Ralph]

I am genuinely happy that you were able to make a success of AA/NA notwithstanding your non-theism. However, it is attitudes such as yours that so many find patronizing and intolerant in that program. I know, for a fact, that the "God thing" is not an "excuse" for a lot of people who simply cannot abide the heavy theology and religiosity of 12 Step programs, coupled with what is frequently an attendant, strong peer pressure to "do God." Some of these seekers have gone on to success in places like this: Lifering Secular Recovery

The vast majority of meetings I went to did NOT push religion.
Maybe the meetings you went to did but that wasn't my experience.


I DID see a lot of people use "the god thing" as an excuse. If it wasn't that --then it was something else. Some people just don't want to stop using and feel the need to justify it with lame excuses.

Sorry if you find that to be patronizing. It's just reality as far as I'm concerned.

You are an addict right.......................

 

[Zero]

But do you feel you need a support group? My discomfort with what you report-- and it is not uncommon -- is that 12 Step programs have become so pervasive they now have one for some 200 different issues/disorders. What this has done is casued the theology, tenets, slogans and evolving mores and doctrines of the 12 Step cult/religious movement to essentailly saturate the United States. Basically, in the eyes of many, everyone "needs" the Steps.

AA, of course, was the first 12 Step program, founded by Bill Wilson (and his pal Dr. Bob) in the 1930s. Wilson had a religious experience while drying out in the hosptial, and thereupon joined a then-popular "cult" known as The Oxford Movement. Initially, he tried to reach other "alcoholics" via Oxford, which was not at all just for alcoholism. After a few years, however, he rewrote the Xian tenets of Oxford, making them somewhat more ecumenical and adopting euphemisms like "character defects" for "sin"; AA then became a group just for those struggling with alcohol.

Wislon was a very smart man, and was familiar with the writing of psychologist/philosopher William James, who took a pragmatic view that conversion experiences could be used to overcome unhealthy habits. (There is ample evidence that this is true for some people.) Wilson explicitly founded AA on the "conversion experience" model, and all of the 12 Step programs follow it.

For those who want it, great. But it is not right for everyone, and I wish members would be more honest about the nature of their program.

Thanks for the info...I'm pretty sure this stuff isn't for me. I don't do 'conversion' well, so it would be a waste of time for me to even go. It would be nice to have contact with others who are living with alcoholics, but I don't need all the spiritualistic bagage that comes with it.

 

[Mona]

The vast majority of meetings I went to did NOT push religion.
Maybe the meetings you went to did but that wasn't my experience.

How do you define "pushing" religion? Was the Big Book read from? Were the Steps posted on the wall and did meetings revolve around themes in one of the twelve? The Steps are incoherent without a personal deity to whom one must submit, so I cannot see how you were at *step meetings where religion was not a pervasive theme.

What is a Twelve Step program without the Steps and the deity which is their foundation? Only *one step even mentions alcohol, the first; the rest are largely about getting right with a god and having a conversion experience/spiritual awakening. So if you were going to 12 Step meetings, and using the Big Book, I cannot fathom how religion could not have suffused the experience.

As for me and my interest in ths subject, my undergrad degree is a BA in religious studies with an emphasis on modern American religious movements, including the Twelve Step movement. That is my academic interest. My personal interest is the same reason as yours. But I am not one who is "too smart for the program," (and I implore any of you AA/NA defenders to hold back on the dismissive sloganeering). My problem with it was that I cannot get what I need in a religious environement.

So, I went to the organization I linked earlier. It took some initiative and searching on my own, since no one where I live had any notion if there are alternatives; such was my lazy excuse-making.

This is more personal than I really want to get, and I fear being ridiculed and humiliated by Steppers regarding an issue that is interwoven with profoundly tragic events in my life. Some are nice people, but many employ a large arsenal of group-protective slogans and accusations that are standardly applied to dissidents. But this much I will say: I sat crying in a 12 Step therapists office begging him to find me something else, and he coldly looked at me and said (slinging AA slogan 126(B)) "Your best thinking got you here." No, actually, my best thinking got me OUT of there, and online to an alternative. Never again will I immerse mysef among Steppers with their 252 group-think and (often) cruelly used slogans.

 

[Zero]

So, Mona, what you are saying is that AA and other 12-Step programs resemble cults on a deep level?

Certainly, you get the strong impression that these are religious organizations, with all the issues that come with it. I have no doubt that we will see at least one post defending AA as the right solution for every person, which is pure nonsense, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Mona]

So, Mona, what you are saying is that AA and other 12-Step programs resemble cults on a deep level?

I want to be careful here, since I dislike the word "cult," which in common parlance means "a new religion I do not like." But it is a non-pejorative term when used by secular students of religion, e.g. cultural anthropologists, sociologists, historians.

But yes, in that sense, AA absolutely is a cult. If you go here you will see that AA is profiled as one of several hundred religious cults by the University of Virginia's religious movements project. This entry, btw, was once more emphatic about the religiosity of AA, but it was inundated with complaints by AA defenders and has been modified to claim that AA is open to those with any belief or none, and a more benign description about the supposed lack of pressure on, and openess to, non-believers. I can send you to sites not attempting neutrality, and these would take strong exception to that more benign characterization. I personally would as well, with the exception of some large metropolitan areas like NYC where there are explicitly non-step, agnostic meetings.

The reason I'm not inclined, however, to post some of the more shrill anti-AA sites is (1) I don't think AA is the nefarious and dangerous organization many of them find it to be, and (2) that stuff raises the level of discussion to nastiness real fast. AA *is* religious and there often is unpleasant pressure applied to those who do not get with the whole step program, most especially the god stuff. AA has taboos and a huge array of slogans that can be, and often are, used as swords against dissident members. This is not unlike other cults that employ group-think and common sayings and rigid attitudes to protect the group from heretics; shunning, ostracism and such are common tools of group protection and AA is very defintitely not an exception, at least in many places and the experiences of many.

For those who can thrive there, great, and I mean that sincerely. But I feel it is important, both for those who need something different and their validation, and also as a matter of intellectual integrity, to examine how the Twelve Step movement really functions, both in individual lives and also in the culture at large.

 

[hammegk]

I wish members would be more honest about the nature of their program.

Like their ability to recognize ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊? (No, it isn't ESP.)

What is your drug of choice? Cocaine? Wine? Beer?