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#81 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#82 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,248
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Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously. |
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#83 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,649
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#84 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 34,265
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End of page 34 to the beginning of Page 37 has Behe up against a wall doing everything he can to not have to admit that ID isn't a scientific theory as defined by the National Acadamy of Sciences. I almost feel sorry for the guy. Almost.
Eta: Oh, found a better sound byte: Page 39 lines 6-9
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#85 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,629
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I rather liked the bits about the loose definitions of "author" in pages 28-32.
"The way I read that is that he is seeing into the future and seeing when this actually will be published and anticipating that I will participate in the publication of thee book at that point. Seeing into the future is one of the powers of the intelligent design movement?" |
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#86 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 39,348
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All good clean fun!
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#87 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 117,320
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And when is a cause not a cause? When it's an intelligently designed cause (pages 23-24)
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#88 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 34,265
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#89 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#90 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,292
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To all ID people
Never believe in your own propaganda. Never go to court to get your own way. High risk of embarrassing failure. |
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#91 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#92 |
Gentleman of leisure
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
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I am sure he will understand it. He should have had in previous cases forensic and other evidence. That should have taught him the difference between rubbish and science. The trial would make the judge the world''s leading expert on the validity of ID and evolution. He will be quoted for years to come.
But as you say I am speaking too early. Somebody else may slip up badly. |
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#93 |
Lackey
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Location: South East, UK
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I have been impressed with the quality of the cross-examinations. But then good lawyers are very good at arguing! Truth of course is a different matter...
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#94 |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Posts: 39,348
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It's nice to see someone being a bit tougher with Behe than in this recent interview in the Grauniad.
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#95 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
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Interesting comment here:
Quote:
Consider taking a rock from the bottom of the heap of rocks, the rock heap will collapse, therefore the original rock heap is in fact an example of something that displays Behe's "irreducible complexity". In fact the original rock heap shows that something very complex that depends on every component being in the right place for it to exist can occur just by chance. To go a step further using the reasoning he says is behind the idea of "ID" we end up with the conclusion that a rock heap must have been designed to be a rock heap. This probably doesn't worry Behe since he believes the designer is God and presumably he believes god *has* designed everything. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
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#97 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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TalkOrigins have the transcripts in html format.
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#98 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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KingMerv00 strikes the first blow in round 2
It must be annoying, being the judge and knowing that the case will be appealed and a bunch of other judges will retry the case. Couldn't they just go straight to the appeal court and start there? I don't see why he bothers getting up in the morning. |
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#99 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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In his testimony he's been careful to say that while it is his personal belief that the designer is God, it's not part of the "scientific theory" of ID:
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#100 |
Lackey
Administrator
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#101 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Not quite my point, I know (because he's said so under oath
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#102 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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#103 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
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You know, maybe we should take ID'ers to court, instead of the other way around. It actually seems to be working quite well....
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#105 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,658
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Don't know about that. It seems to me that this guy could have been filleted but hasn't. I, personally, would have explored whether or not he feels that it is permissible to lie to advance one's religion. Dunno, it just appeared to me that he could have been humiliated.
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#106 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
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Have you considered the possibility that he might say "no"?
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The object is not to humiliate Behe, amusing though it is, but to get the right answers out of him. I think the lawyer's doing a good job. |
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#107 |
Lackey
Administrator
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And isn't he being cross-examined as an "expert witness"? If so I would have thought the rules of the court would make it difficult to ask him questions outside his remit as an expert witness.
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#108 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,141
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Originally Posted by Darat
Duh. Who disagrees with that? ~~ Paul |
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Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
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#109 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#110 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
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Boy, smack me upside the head. I read the news every day, talk with typically well informed adults and am involved in the Politics and Current events forum and I have NO idea what the hell this is all about. How does this happen? Damn!!!
Ok, I've seen headlines with Dover and ID in them and I guess I didn't bother. So it's my fault. So sue me. I thought Dover was across the pond. Guess I thought wrong. What's that? Yeah, I have a point, besides the fact that I'm completely clueless. I've checked out the links and so far I can only find current events. Is there anywhere to go for some background on this particular case? |
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Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#111 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,141
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Claus, you can find some of the history of the definition of irreducible complexity here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/design/faqs/nfl/#irred See section 4.2. Also, in this paper, Dembski seems to have killed the idea of IC: http://www.iscid.org/papers/Dembski_...ted_011404.pdf
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~~ Paul |
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Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
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#112 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
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Thanks.
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#113 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
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Actually, Chaitin's "algorithmic information theory" tells us that this is impossible. The question of "What is the smallest representation of an algorithm which computes a given function?" is undecidable in general. If we think of a biological function as some kind of algorithm and DNA (or other organic molecules) as the code for this algorithm, we can't decide if there is a simpler (in the information theory sense of the word) system that performs the same function.
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#114 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,141
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Ka-blam! Ka-pow! Ah, my foot, my foot!
![]() ~~ Paul |
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Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
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#115 |
Lackey
Administrator
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But consider if the heap of rocks was "supporting" a bank of earth, according to ID because we see the bank being supported by the heap it is reasonable to assume that the heap of rocks was designed to support the bank of earth. Yet when I remove the one rock the heap collapses and the earth bank is no longer supported. Therefore, according to ID theory the heap of rocks was irreducibly complex. Apparently only one particular combination of the rocks in a heap could act as if they were designed to support the bank of earth.
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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#116 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,135
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Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#117 |
Nap, interrupted.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,141
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Originally Posted by Darat
~~ Paul |
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Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim |
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#118 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,064
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Good; I'd hate to think you necessarily thought that.
And now for something completely different:
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#119 |
Banned
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#120 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Good heavens, we're back on-topic.
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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