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26th July 2008, 05:07 AM | #41 |
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I just read on my e-mail-provider's page and article from the Spiegel about a Muslim terrorist group called 'Islamic Party Turkistan' claiming responsibility for bus bombs in Yunnan (spelling?) and an explosive-laden tractor attack in Wenzhou (spelling?) on the 17th. They're threatening more attacks etc. Much of that on Chinese TV and are those attacks in Kunming included in the claims, too?
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26th July 2008, 06:31 AM | #42 |
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Yeah, I'm honestly not sure what to think of this at all. The Chinese authorities are denying it is part of any organized terrorist effort; and there seems to be little or no evidence to support the IPT's claim that they're responsible.
The talk about this -- and the rumors that are flying around -- is quite fevered, with numerous different theories. Some foreigners lean towards a belief that the Chinese gov't engineered the attacks in order to justify increased military presence at the Games...I personally discount that theory entirely. First, some clarification -- "Turkistan" is the name of the independent nation that some Uigher Muslims want to establish in north-western China. While it seems that overall only a minority of Uighers support this notion, those who do support it have a fairly active terrorist faction that has been responsible in the past for bus bombings, and other such activities. However, their attacks in the past have tended to target cities that represent Chinese power -- Beijing, Shanghai, or cities within the Uigher Autonomous Region that have predominantly Han Chinese populations. Hitting places like Kunming -- that is far from the Uigher area, and has no real significance to their struggle -- has never been a strategy they've used in the past, and one that doesn't seem to make much sense. But then others point out that, with the increased security surrounding the Games, Beijing and other such targets may be too difficult...so they could be seeking to disrupt the Games with a strategy of fear by hitting other, less protected targets. Added to all this, while bombing a bus may seem an implicity terrorist action, it is actually not that uncommon in China for other people to use such a tactic; similar to the "going postal" idea, if someone feels that they've been unfairly fired from their job working for public transit, or has a family member killed when hit by a bus, or just someone who hears voices telling them to destroy the buses, they may decide to bomb the buses. I personally tend towards the belief that it is just a local thing, that the IPT has seized on to gain publicity; the main reason for this is that the bombs they've used in the past have been more powerful, and more effective. The bombs used in this instance were very amateurish, not at all like what they've used before. But its still possible that the IPT is responsible; or that the IPT will get inspired by this to launch other, similar attacks. Given the level of security in Beijing these days, I'd say that a well organized attack within the city is fairly minimal (they've had American anti-terrorist military forces consulting with them for the past year on this); but that doesn't rule out attacks on other more vulnerable targets. And to add to the list of inconveniences -- the gov't has announced that from now until the end of the Games, any public meetings of over 20 people must get special authorization in advance. This, unfortunately, includes the training classes that my company offers; and getting permission is a pain in the tuckus. So we're taking a one month holiday. In addition to this, all "non-residents" of Beijing must get special identity papers in order to stay in Beijing during the Olympics; if the police stop a non-resident, and they don't have the papers, they can be escorted out of Beijing until the Games are over. Here's where it gets tricky. China has a system called "hukou" (who-koe), whereby each person is given 'citizenship' in a specific town/city. In order to live in another city, you must transfer your hokou to that city (similar to getting a visa to visit another country, or a green card to live in another country). It's a little complicated, so let me try to explain it like this: Buy property in another city -- you must have a hukou for that city. So a person with a Xi'an hukou can't buy property in Beijing. Work in another city -- technically, you're supposed to have a hukou to get a job in a particular city; however, the authorities tend to overlook this (although it can be a handy rational for getting rid of someone they find undesirable). Live in another city -- as long as you are renting (not buying), you can live in another city without a hukou for that city Visit another city -- travel is no problem whatsoever, your hukou doesn't matter. What the Beijing gov't has done is to significantly tighten the normal hukou restrictions. If you don't have a Beijing hukou (and there are lots of Chinese in Beijing who don't), you either get the special permit, or you leave. And if you want to go to Beijing, you have to apply for the permit in advance (similar to getting a visa, although it is much faster). Foreigners are subject to the same restrictions; I'm considered a resident of Beijing, since my visa and residence permit were issued here. But other foreigners may be required to get the additional permit (although this does not seem to be strongly enforced right now). More fun times in jolly ol' Beijing. |
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26th July 2008, 06:37 AM | #43 |
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And in regard to the Wenzhou bomb, it appears that the claims from the IPT are completely fabricated. Here's an article from the China Daily:
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So I'd say that we take the claims of the IPT with a rather significant dose of salt. |
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26th July 2008, 06:50 AM | #44 |
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Sounds like a load of paper work, this Hokou business.
Does China regularly - more or less - have a problem with bombings and terrorism? And yea, as for the less protected targets, the article said the self-proclaimed leader of the group said in the video which was released they were hitting anything Olympics-related and using 'never before tried' methods as well. We'll see. Meh. |
26th July 2008, 07:35 AM | #46 |
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I love how the Olympic Games is such a powerful symbol of human unity, even after all these centuries.
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26th July 2008, 04:17 PM | #47 |
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Olympic Potemkin Village
Beijing begins massive Olympic shutdown
(AP via Yahoo)
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(Asia News)
Quote:
The Sporting Spirit Tribune 14 December 1945
Originally Posted by George Orwell
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26th July 2008, 04:30 PM | #48 |
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Germans and Czechs? I don't know about any beef we might have with them.
Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing crystal clear skies above Beijing. Or if they can actually achieve it. |
26th July 2008, 06:27 PM | #49 |
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26th July 2008, 07:19 PM | #50 |
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And another article about the security measures for the Games; this one about the fact that the Beijing gov't has 400,000 "security volunteers" for the Games. These are basically retired men and women who will serve as a local neighborhood watch, looking for suspicious people or activities in their neighborhood. The article is written by Geoffrey York, who is quite notorious for slanting all articles about China in as negative a manner as possible, and this one is no exception:
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Geoffrey York tries to raise the spectre of bringing back the old system of neighborhood committees; a spectre that is entirely unfounded, and reveals either gross ignorance of what he's talking about, or else a willing eagerness to distort facts to his own end. To whit: Old System -- Nobody wore identification, they were hidden within the community, you didn't know who it was New System -- They wear clear identification Old System -- Their primary purpose was to spy on people within their community, and report them to the authorities New System -- Their primary purpose is to watch for outsiders who don't belong in the community, and report them if they seem suspicious Old System -- The focus was political, reporting people for any statements or beliefs that contradicted those of the government New System -- The focus is primarily non-political, to prevent potential terrorist attacks, or other kinds of crime. There is a political aspect to this, in that it will also be used to try to stop unauthorized protests (Falun Gong, Tibet, Human Rights, etc.) in such communities. Old System -- was controlled by the Politburo (to enforce correct political thinking) New System -- is controlled by the Public Security Bureau (the police) (tho prevent crime) Geoffrey then goes on to raise the even more frightening -- if entirely unsubstantiated by any facts whatsoever -- spectre that after the Games are over, this terrible system will not only remain in place in Beijing, but will be extended throughout China. I thought that reporters were supposed to "report"...since when did being able to predict the future become part of a reporter's domain? |
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26th July 2008, 07:33 PM | #51 |
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I saw someone interviewing a woman in china today (I think on CNN) and she was saying "Oh the grey sky just means it's about to rain. See that's why I have this umbrella. It's not pollution." Now is this possibly just self delusion or government fed?
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26th July 2008, 08:15 PM | #52 |
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26th July 2008, 08:30 PM | #53 |
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Following up on the article I linked to above, I decided to actually write a letter to Geoffrey York, and cc: it to his editors. Not that I expect much from it...but if there's any response, I'll share it here.
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26th July 2008, 08:32 PM | #54 |
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26th July 2008, 08:41 PM | #55 |
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26th July 2008, 08:44 PM | #56 |
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26th July 2008, 09:02 PM | #57 |
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I don't think it was going to rain because she was the only one with an umbrella and no one had any jackets. Also you couldn't see any clouds or anything to tell what the weather pattern might have been. The sky was just one solid light grey color. This "grey haze" was talked about and the reporter I believe said it had blown in from an industrial area. Anyway I think the first of your hypothesis is a reasonable conclusion.
So anyway I hear Tony Leung is getting married finally. Big news in China? I'd imagine so. |
27th July 2008, 05:34 AM | #58 |
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Well, Geoffrey York has replied to my email, and given quite a detailed and extensive reply, at that. It is only fair that his response and rebuttal be included here for everyone's consideration.
Quote:
Quote:
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27th July 2008, 05:37 AM | #59 |
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And, of course, I replied to him. Following is my return correspondence:
Quote:
Quote:
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27th July 2008, 07:28 AM | #60 |
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Wolfman,
You have mentioned a very mixed bag of steps the Chinese Gov't is taking, some good, some bad and a few at both extremes. Overall though, before the start of the games will this likely end as a positive gain for the people of China, a loss of previous gains or will life return to the status quo before the changes implemented because of the Olympics? As an aside, it would be interesting to see some of the "black" athletes from around the world going out and trying to eat in the restaurants away from the Olympic Village. Boo |
27th July 2008, 07:55 AM | #61 |
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Wolfman,
This point is concerning to me. In your postings on the Globe and Mail site, you weren't trying to sugar coat or revise the Tienanmen massacre were you?
Quote:
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27th July 2008, 08:22 AM | #63 |
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Not at all. Although no exact count is possible, I fully believe that quite likely hundreds of people died at Tiananmen Square. But not thousands...a figure that Geoffrey York has used very frequently in numerous reports about China. The only sources that he's able to cite are A) a report that was made on the day of the massacre, in the midst of massive confusion (and a report that was later revised by the same organization that made the initial report), and a single author who was not even present at the event in question.
By contrast, as I mention in my reply, I personally know several people who were there, and one whose brother was killed that day. Not a single one of them comes even close to "thousands" of people killed. And if you want to argue that perhaps they are afraid of the government, then how about Chinese dissidents from the Tiananmen Square protests who have since left China, and now live in Canada, and the U.S. Surely, if thousands of people had been killed that day, they would be the first ones to declare that...yet to my knowledge, not a single one of them makes such a claim. And if you check out any of the numerous human rights groups that address the Tiananmen Square Massacre, you will likewise find that they pretty much universally put the numbers in the hundreds. These are people who are pretty strongly anti-Chinese...yet even they don't claim it was "thousands" of people killed. |
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27th July 2008, 08:27 AM | #64 |
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I would hesitate to make any predictions at all, simply because so much depends on what happens during the Games.
Take a worst-case scenario: someone actually does make a terrorist attack (or multiple attacks) at the Games. The gov't responds in the only way it knows how...with massive overreaction, sending in the military, and giving hardliners and excuse to seize even more power within the government. Or a best-case scenario: the Games go off relatively smoothly, and the increased international attention puts more pressure on China for continued positive change (they are, after all, hosting the World Expo in Shanghai in 2010). Increase tourism and business fosters continued economic growth in China, which in turn fosters education and a middle class that has ever increasing economic power. That, in turn, drives a process of change that leads to the continuing democratization of China. Or...it could be anywhere in between. |
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27th July 2008, 11:50 AM | #65 |
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Oh, well I guess that makes it OK? It is so silly of people to complain about deaths in Tienanmen Square when it was only hundreds of people, not thousands, killed.
Wolfman, since you are the self proclaimed authority on China, what is the acceptable official government number of deaths per protest? |
27th July 2008, 07:34 PM | #66 | ||
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As Cleon states, at no time have I ever said that Tiananmen Square was acceptable, or excusable. Quite the opposite. Not only do I condemn it absolutely, but I have close friends here who lost family members there. The discussion about this particular issue began in the Globe and Mail forums (a copy of which I have not posted here), in which I referred to Geoffrey York's tendency to include the sentence "Tiananmen Square, where hundreds or even thousands of people were killed in 1989". He has since corrected me in a subsequent email (our exchange continues, and is quite interesting), that while he used the expression a few times, apparently the other uses were by other journalists, not by him. However, my point of disagreement with his was not that Tiananmen Square was in some way excusable, or acceptable. It was the fact that the Globe and Mail's articles about China tended to use this description regardless of what the article was about; and that the estimate of "thousands" of people killed at Tiananmen Square was not one widely supported by the vast majority of authorities on the massacre. It was a deliberately prejudicial sentence, inserted because the author knew the negative sentiments that its inclusion would immediately arouse. Since my bone of contention with Geoffrey York is that he presents a very deliberately biased perspective, this was relevant. One of the issues that has come up in my exchange with Geoffrey is the ongoing use of Tiananmen Square in many articles about China. If we're going to talk about Tiananmen Square every time we mention China, then why do we not talk about the 22,000 Japanese who were interred during WW II in Canada, and had all their property illegally stolen from them, every time we talk about Canada? Geoffrey's response was that the Japanese internments happened some 60 years ago, and were no longer relevant; whereas the events at Tiananmen Square happened 2 decades ago, and were still relevant. I then replied that if we are going to apply time limits, then since China's invasion of Tibet was some 50 years ago, we should also stop mentioning that. Its old news, no longer relevant...if one accepts the premise that such things have pre-determined time limits. My own argument is different. I argue that such things should be based on the current government's involvement in the issues being discussed. The current leaders in China had nothing to do with Tiananmen Square; nor have they engaged in any massacres of a similar nature. Criticize them for abuses that they are responsible for, yes. But constant and deliberate efforts to tar them with the imagery of 1989 are intellectually and morally dishonest. By the same token, although the invasion of Tibet happened some 50 years ago, there are still specific abuses being acted upon the peoples of Tibet by the current government; and therefore, even though it happened 50 years ago, it is still a relevant issue, and it should be discussed in relation to the current government's actions and responsibilities. |
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27th July 2008, 07:35 PM | #67 |
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Wolfman,
I understand your hesitation and reservations. I think I worded my question poorly in what I was asking. Given the changes made, how likely is it that these changes will remain in effect after the games or will policies return to the status quo? Do you see the overall changes made as positive or negative in the life of the general population? Much of what I've read seems to focus on the negatives and the restrictions being placed on anyone that might be considered a minority or outsider. There have also been the positives such as the new railways lines and the alternating traffic days that have seem to have alleviated much of the traffic congestion and possibly improved the local air quality. The security patrols seem a potential for both positive and negative depending on the level of paranoia and zealousness of those patrolling along with the response to information passed on by the patrols. Boo |
27th July 2008, 07:39 PM | #68 |
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Barring unforeseen events of a particularly dramatic nature -- such as terrorist attacks -- I believe that once the Games are over (and by this, I mean both the regular Olympics and the Paralympics...the regulations will stay in place until both events are concluded), things will pretty much return to 'normal'.
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29th July 2008, 06:33 AM | #69 |
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Back on the topic of the Olympics, rather than Wolfman's unwillingness to simply dismiss and condemn everything related to the Chinese government, this story on CNN caught my eye.
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29th July 2008, 07:18 AM | #70 |
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29th July 2008, 08:21 AM | #71 |
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Its not so much that they're exotic. Its that they're trained extensively before coming to China. They speak excellent English (most Chinese prostitutes do not), they know lots of 'tricks' to make a man happy, etc.
And if you get caught, it is two 'foreigners'...which is treated much less seriously by the authorities than if a foreigner is doing it with a Chinese woman (which causes the entire nation of China to lose face, of course). And no...I don't know this from personal experience. However, it is a frequent topic of discussion here. |
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29th July 2008, 09:24 AM | #72 |
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An unsophisticated group, Black September, pulled it off in 1972. Modern terrorist groups are varied in their level of sophistication, and the security measures to prevent their successful pulling of some stunt/slaughter certainly improve since Munich.
But the sordid fact is that "there is no security." For the sake of people in Beijing, including an old high school buddy of mine, I hope no terrorist attack takes place. I am not optomistic. DR |
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29th July 2008, 09:33 AM | #73 |
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DR, I would more suspect attacks on aircraft en-route to China as a possibility. When you know in advance where the security attention is going to be, its much more likely that you will attack where it is not.
For example, suppose some religiously radicalized air force pilots of some nation bordering china decide to take it upon themselves to arm an aircraft and attack a plane from Israel? I really doubt they will have a fighter escort all the way to Chinese airspace, and if it is a suicide mission, a fighter has a lot more range than if it is a sortie you plan to return from. But yeah, I expect the worst regardless of the fact that I can always imagine the worst! |
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29th July 2008, 12:00 PM | #74 |
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The way read it, you were implying that 100's were an acceptable number and that 1000's were not. I will not let a third party tell me what to think. Now that it has come directly from you. I apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote.
I have some financial investments in China and I will say they have done very well for me. I do fear that these upcoming Olympics may show the dark side of China, instead of the shining jewel of the orient they want everyone to see. I hope it comes off good for them. Good for them will also be good for me. I also understand your position in China can be perilous. If you do say the wrong thing, you could wind up in prison at the whim of some bureaucrat. Good luck to you. |
29th July 2008, 11:09 PM | #75 |
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Perhaps now would be a good time for a sing-a-long:
Official 2008 Olympics Song: Please Ignore The Communism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XDU3ePlyH8&feature=user |
29th July 2008, 11:17 PM | #76 | |||
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This ad is so annoying it made the news in Australia:
The company behind the advert is the same company behind the Opening Ceremony uniforms of the Chinese Athletes which has been compared to Tomato Scrambled Eggs:
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29th July 2008, 11:23 PM | #77 |
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I saw a picture in the local paper of the Nepalese police beating up Tibetan protesters in Tibet. I could be wrong, but some of the police looked distinctly Western, with pale skin and blond hair.
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30th July 2008, 04:41 AM | #78 |
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30th July 2008, 11:15 AM | #79 |
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Here is an eyewitness account that supports your claim.
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Also Google for "Black Hands of Beijing". Click on the second link. (The first link the Amazon page for the book.) I hope Robin Munro is credible enough for Geoffrey York. |
30th July 2008, 04:37 PM | #80 |
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It was the Nepal side of the border apparently.
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