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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

My statement was, "people, kids, think they are a particular gender (by which they literally mean sex) on the basis of what they like and don't like."

No, separating sex from gender wouldn't solve that problem. It created the problem. I probably didn't express that clearly enough. The people I'm talking about use the word 'gender' when they start believing they are 'trans', but what they are imagining (at least many of them) is that they can change their sex. They don't know (a) that sex is binary and immutable, thanks to the TRAs lying endlessly to them, and (b) they're using 'gender' almost the way it was used when it replaced 'sex', just as what you call being male or female.

What do you mean by 'gender being separate from sex'? I believe you mean they will be fine to accept their sex (assigned at birth, as they'll still call it) and put on whatever gender they want (when they want). And you're apparently so innocent, you think that'll solve the problem. Just like you're so naive you imagine putting "FEMALE" on toilet doors will keep the males out.

And you appeared to agree with the main point of my statement - they see sexual stereotypes and on that basis decide what sex they are (they - at least many of them - just call it gender instead). But if we - if teachers in school especially - just talked about the sexes, gender ideology would not get such a foothold. 'Gender' immediately invites 'gender identity'. But then apparently you're fine with that as well, so god knows where you are from moment to moment. You don't want kids to think they're the opposite sex based on stereotypes, but you're happy for them to try different 'genders' as and when they feel like it, because they have an internal sense of their gender. I give up.
Thanks for answering, Il answer your question. I define gender as being a social construct that has and still does pressure people to conform to society roles. More and more people question the roles and decide to not conform to the roles by picking a different role, they are unknowingly still conforming though. Some people just don't accept the concept though, and they look on as everyone else fights about imagined concepts.
 
If only I could give it much more! Every time a male feels morally constrained from entering women's leagues and/or spaces, that's gender3 at work, regardless of what we choose to call the process by which sexed roles are personally internalized and socially enforced.

It seems to me you're giving the word "gender" itself too much importance. It is entirely possible to state the central idea of gender ideology without using that word at all, as when Martine Rothblatt claimed the following:

The legacy of medicalization...is that a person with a penis usually can't wear a dress to work until they convert their penis into a vagina and change all their ID from male to female. This is absurd. We must finally end the notion that sex is between our legs. Instead, it is time to realize that sex is between our ears.​

That last bit is transsexualism/transgenderism in a nutshell: Sex isn't a condition of the body, it is a state of mind, and all things socially sorted by sex need to take that into account.
That rothblatt statement is absurd,
of course you can wear a dress to work with a penis,
who says you cant?

Rothblatt seems to be making up a stupid premise in the hopes that the audience is as stupid as the premise, then adding an even stupider factually incorrect premise just to weed out the audience that won't fall for the stupid premise. Is that rothblatts audience heh.
 
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That's one alternative, of several. Another is that men are not fearful of attacks that generally aren't happening anywhere
Um... attacks by males on females are happening everywhere. Why would you feel more safe in a bathroom than elsewhere?
 
Which is a stupid take. You insist that everyone has to be at one extreme or the other. Have you heard of a concept called a spectrum, or shades of gray, anything like that? Everyone else has. Member arthwollipot is solidly a TRA, and considers me to be on 'your side', because I do not endorse his extremes fully and unreservedly. It's strictly you guys at the extremes that prevent any kind of real discussion about this.

Are you familiar with the concept of a multi occupant public rest room? The general public, men and women both, are a few feet away on the other side of an open door, without even a flimsy latch on it. And that's actually a good thing- if anyone feels threatened, one yell and people on the other side of the unlocked door can respond immediately. That's likely why you can't find stats on bathroom assaults. They are such poor areas to assault someone that no one is trying, beyond the nuts that do the same thing under any policy.

Wrong, as usual. In fact, it's the polar opposite of what I have repeatedly stated, ie strict sex segregation needs to be introduced where communal nudity would be expected. At this point, there is no room left for you to say you are misunderstanding. You are being stupid, willfully or otherwise.

More stupidity, willing or otherwise. I have said the opposite, that women's privacy and modesty are in fact the most persuasive arguments in favor of strict sex segregation in public rest rooms.
Your propensity to label arguments you don't like as "wrong' or "stupid" betrays your own lack of ability to refute them.

The problem all of us have with you is that your position flip-flops so often its impossible to know what your actual opinions are.

Ya I've said the same a hundred times. But your side counters with 'but look at how these pervs really are, they are dangerous sex criminals'.
Again YOU are the only person here who uses such derogatory terms in relation to transgender identifying people. That alone speaks volumes.

If you guys stuck to the simple modesty argument, you'd seem entirely reasonable and no one would be calling you Bashers. But when you throw anything you can think of out, even when it fails on reasonable grounds, the fig leaf slips.
Why should one argument you don't like invalidate all the other arguments you claim to find acceptable?

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but I know for a fact that rape crisis centers and domestic abuse shelters in mine have never turned away anyone. A victim is a victim, and those that want to help victims do not get judgey about their lifestyles.
Again, the world doesn't revolve around your tiny speck of the planet. Places where women's rape crisis facilities accept males are in a tiny minority. Ones that employ males in front-line staff positions are even more rare.

How the hell did Wi Spa get in that list? Nothing changed, before or after Merager.
Exactly my point ..nothing changed, the law did not permit a ladies club to exclude biological males, and that club faced legal consequences for daring to try to eject a male from a women-only section - they were not allowed to enforce their own rules.
 
(Attacks by imposter/transwomen in public restrooms don't seem to be happening anywhere)
Again, why are you limiting the problem to reported attacks only? What Richard Cox did in Fairfax won't show up in the statistics. But if you think his presence was not a danger, then you're delusional.

The thing you claim never happens, happened.
 
Your propensity to label arguments you don't like as "wrong' or "stupid" betrays your own lack of ability to refute them.
That the argument should not be dictated by unreasonable extremists is hardly irrefutable.
The problem all of us have with you is that your position flip-flops so often its impossible to know what your actual opinions are.
So you keep saying, with zero evidence. Thr problem, as I keep pointing out and you keep snipping out, is that you flat out lie about the content of my own posts over and over.
Again YOU are the only person here who uses such derogatory terms in relation to transgender identifying people. That alone speaks volumes.
It does. I use the same terminology to their faces, too, because they know the difference between me saying it out loud and you whispering it behind their backs.
Why should one argument you don't like invalidate all the other arguments you claim to find acceptable?
?
Again, the world doesn't revolve around your tiny speck of the planet. Places where women's rape crisis facilities accept males are in a tiny minority. Ones that employ males in front-line staff positions are even more rare.
So you say.
Exactly my point ..nothing changed, the law did not permit a ladies club to exclude biological males, and that club faced legal consequences for daring to try to eject a male from a women-only section - they were not allowed to enforce their own rules.
I didnt ask about the female only club having their own rules. I asked about Wi Spa.
 
Again, why are you limiting the problem to reported attacks only? What Richard Cox did in Fairfax won't show up in the statistics. But if you think his presence was not a danger, then you're delusional.
Because you said 'attacks', not theoretical maybes.
The thing you claim never happens, happened.
Why do you do this? The only thing I said 'never happens' is evidence presented that such incidents increase under open gender policies. Others here lie out of habit. Why are you doing so?
 
That rothblatt statement is absurd, of course you can wear a dress to work with a penis, who says you cant?
Not trying to argue it is not absurd, I'm pointing out that even if the word "gender" only ever conveyed the meanings known to Noah Webster in 1828 and was never once appropriated by the transexual movement and their intersectional feminist allies, those activists would still be able to convey their core ideology by reconceptualizing "sex" and various terms derived therefrom. The problem faced by those who want to preserve single-sex spaces and services is the reconceptualization of sex from a condition of the body to a condition of the mind, it doesn't matter all that much which specific words were used to accomplish this feat.

I get that @John Freestone is saying we need to avoid using "gender" in any sense of the term because it has been weaponized for certain ideological aims, but I don't think that will actually help given that the core ideas are already out there being absorbed and passed around. Those ideas need to be squarely refuted, regardless of the language we find them wrapped in.
 
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I did. And my statement was correct: males attack females everywhere. You didn't actually dispute that, you disputed something else that I didn't say in that post.
And that post was in response to me opining on why men were more accommodating in ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rest rooms.

Can you move the goalposts a little more slowly, or at least not as far? It's been a rough week at work and my knees are killing me.
 
Because you said 'attacks', not theoretical maybes.
Never happens, right?
VA Judge Finds Trans Teen Guilty of Sexual Assault in Loudoun County High School Girl's Bathroom Case ​

Which one of the "Thermal Denial Bingo Card" squares will you put this one down to...

- Not really trans?
- Trans but blown up out of proportion?
- Wasn't trans until after the assault?
- This happened five years ago?
- Its only one case?
 
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Never happens, right?
Can you read? Zig and I were talking about why men were less concerned about nonconformists in a public rest room. You respond with weird non-sequitors.

Regarding the case you irrelevantly bring up:

1) I never said attacks don't happen, scooter. They always have, and always will. As you can see by your own story, this kid attacked where it was opportune, not relying on magic words. He dragged another girl in a seperate instance into an empty classroom. 'Magic words' didn't factor into his crimes at all.

2)Getting tired of repeating this to you, but what I said didn't happen was an increase in assaults under open gender policies, using magic words to get out of it. Prefacing any "lookit the evil tranny" story you can scrounge up with "you say this never happens" is dumber than your usual.

Come on man, step up your game.

Eta: I mean, this exact story has been held up multiple times as an example of... what? That a predatorial kid will prey when the situation presents itself? Is this really the best you can do for arguing that attacks increase under open gender laws (which I've argued shouldn't apply to schools anyway)?

Eta2: This is what your arguments invariably boil down to: the bad guy was wearing a skirt, therefore all guys who wear skirts are bad. Maybe you could consult a skeptics forum and they could explain why that reasoning sucks so hard.
 
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I'm not hearing similar indignation about transmen taking "men's words"? While we're at it, imma throw a fit because 'human' and 'woman' and 'mankind' stole our special word. Hey, you stole the 'male' to use in 'female'.Where's my clutching pearls?

EC, you're not 'giving up' anything, or having anything taken away from you. This is ridiculous.
Over the past decade, there's been a concerted push from activists for transgender privileges to systematically dismantle language that is specific to the female sex. Things like:
  • replacing mother with birthing parent or gestational parent
  • replacing breastfeeding with chestfeeding
  • replacing the word woman with person with a cervix, womb-haver, people with uteruses, menstruators, bleeders, breeders, and other dehumanizing language
  • expanding the word woman to include males by default
You know what has NOT been pushed? The same sort of dehumanizing, degrading, reduction to bodily functions when it comes to males. There has NOT been a push to replace father with inseminating parent, or to refer to men as sperm producers or prostate owners or people with a vas deferens or ejaculators or anything remotely similar. There've been instances of magazines putting out articles in the same periodical, in the same *week* where one addressed "people with cervixes" needing to get screened for cancer, and another saying that "men" need to get prostate screenings, and similar sorts of disparities.

At the end of the day, the words related to specifically female experiences have been abused and stretched beyond recognition... but the words related to specifically male experiences have remained intact.

So tell me how females aren't having anything taken away and I'm overreacting again...
 
Bull ◊◊◊◊. I'm contesting the begged question that anything was ever carved in stone to the point where it would need to be 'overridden'. It's always been overwhelmingly sex=gender, and a very rare nonconformist here and there, and no one throwing a fit because a woman was in the men's room.

And before you say it, let me cut to the chase:

"But those trannys rape and kill the women!"
"We are not seeing that."
"But I mean the imposter trannys will rape and kill the women!"
"We are not seeing that either."
"But I mean that they make me uncomfortable!"
"We are all uncomfortable around some people sometimes."

And on and on we go. The bottom line is you don't like them or trust them and don't want them around. Which is fine. I just wish we would stop.playing this game where it's always something else that's the real reason.
1) For like the fiftieth time, please stop using derogatory language in reference to people with transgender identities. I've asked you to stop using slurs multiple times now, and you keep doing it. You might think that because you're shoving those terms into someone else's mouth that makes it okay, and it really doesn't - that just makes it doubly offensive.

2) Once again, you're talking your way around to a position where you're arguing AGAINST females having single-sex spaces that exclude males.
 
Liking is irrelevant. But the fact that women do not trust males in their intimate spaces is not something we've ever denied. The fact that women do not want males in their intimate spaces is not something we've ever denied. You act like this is some sort of gocha, but it's not.
Females do not want males in our intimate spaces. How those males dress, and how they think about their inner gendered souls is 100% irrelevant to that. Their subjective feelings about their special unverifiable identity has nothing at all to do with it - they are still males.
 
On the other hand, as a mild-mannered bloke, I dislike it when a TIF describes herself as a man. She has no idea what being one is, or what boyhood is like. She's never had to deal with the excruciating embarrassment of unwanted erections, or the various demands to be manly. But I also know our struggles aren't much compared to those of women.
They're legitimate struggles and pressures though. I don't think that the experience of being male is necessarily easier or harder than that of being female, but they are inarguably different.
 
The fact that we used 'mankind' and 'human' and prefixed 'man' with 'wo' for 'womb' was male chauvenism.
This is actually a myth. The word "woman" came from "wiffmann", where historically "mann" meant human and was a sex neutral term, and "wiff" meant female. Over time, the use of "mann" narrowed to represent males, and the "ff" sound fell out of "wiffmann" leaving "woman" as the current word. It was never a prefix added on to a male term. The old english term for a male human was "wermann", commonly shortened to "wer". "Wiff" is the root for the modern english word "wife". The evolution of language over time ended up landing on "wiffmann" --> "woman" and "wermann" --> "man".
 
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And that post was in response to me opining on why men were more accommodating in ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rest rooms.
And? Is it your contention that restrooms are uniquely safe spaces? That males are less able to assault females in restrooms than they are anywhere else? Is it your contention that females should let their guard down in front of males, provided that those males are with them in a restroom?

The fact that males assault females is going to affect how females perceive males anywhere and everywhere. Restrooms are not exempt from this. If you think your statistic demonstrates that they are, you don't understand anything about crime statistics, sexual predation, or human psychology.
 

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