Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[The Atheist]

There may indeed be some analogous symptoms of different disorders and the like, but it doesn’t mean we can’t have different approaches to different disorders even if they have analogous symptoms.

Sure, then we can ditch the one-size-fits-all approach that some people seem to be demanding.

The Mayo Clinic doesn't define gender dysphoria in terms of knowing what a woman feels like.

I was talking about what trans people are claiming rather than a medical approach.

Very few people who detransition do so because they truly feel they weren't transgender and had dysphoria in the first place.

Outstanding - the "Not a True Trans" approach. Maybe you could familiarise yourself with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

The vast majority do so because of society or lack of resources.

Of course they do.

Dysphoria is NEVER a choice, but choosing to deal with dysphoria by transitioning is. For me, and other transpeople, it is a choice between living happily as the gender I know myself to be, or slowly killing myself trying to live as the gender I was assigned. My choice was to keep myself alive.

I'm all in favour of that, but if you draw that line over the line of men in panties competing against women, then I'm out.

You should try thinking about the irony of that "women can train harder" point you laughably made a few pages back.

You hate being identified as male. You just said it was killing you to live as one.

But you don't see any hypocrisy in using those very male attributes you were born with to beat women in sports.

 

[lionking]

I think the problem here is that the disassociation of sex and gender causes a bit of confusion as people are used to using the terms interchangeably.

Add more confusion because some, such as Boudicca, appear to want to re-associate sex to where sex follows gender. In other words, she refers to her transition as not only transitioning gender, but also sex. Thus she doesn't accept the term "male" being applied to her.

the result is that, in conversations with Boudicca, there is not term that applies to what you term biology. (She also considers herself to be biologically female.)

Best me to it. Call Boudicca male and be prepared to be told you are a hateful, transphobic bigot.

 

[cullennz]

a) Very few people who detransition do so because they truly feel they weren't transgender and had dysphoria in the first place. The vast majority do so because of society or lack of resources.

b) They were either convinced by other people or by religion that their feelings weren't valid, or they don't have the money and resources to transition to a point they feel comfortable in their own bodies, or they don't blend in well and it causes them more distress than when they were hiding who they were, or they were disowned by their families/spouses/children for transitioning, etc.

Like everything the transphobes try to argue, it's a problem that doesn't really exist the way they think it does.



c) Dysphoria is NEVER a choice, but choosing to deal with dysphoria by transitioning is. For me, and other transpeople, it is a choice between living happily as the gender I know myself to be, or slowly killing myself trying to live as the gender I was assigned. My choice was to keep myself alive.

a) Do you have some links to these stats?
b) Do you have some links to these stats?
c) Arguable whether acting on a mental issue is a choice. But tend to agree partially

 

[LondonJohn]

Who's "we" in this context? Boudicca has explicitly stated that describing her as male is hatefully misgendering her.

Ah but that's all down to colloquial societal factors where sex and gender labels are used interchangeably. Which is exactly why England&Wales legislation takes care to ensure that (for example) somebody calling a transwoman "male" can still potentially be charged with a criminal offence.

However, in strict medical & academic terms, the definitions I've provided are the general rule. And I suspect that these threads might benefit if all the participants were to follow those definitions as well.

 

[cullennz]

Ah but that's all down to colloquial societal factors where sex and gender labels are used interchangeably. Which is exactly why England&Wales legislation takes care to ensure that (for example) somebody calling a transwoman "male" can still potentially be charged with a criminal offence.
However, in strict medical & academic terms, the definitions I've provided are the general rule. And I suspect that these threads might benefit if all the participants were to follow those definitions as well.

If the highlighted is actually true it is stupid.

 

[Ron Obvious]

If the highlighted is actually true it is stupid.

Not just stupid; it's utterly insane. Even worse than most "hate speech" laws. Transwomen ARE objectively male, so this is literally Orwellian.

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

 

[Meadmaker]

However, in strict medical & academic terms, the definitions I've provided are the general rule. And I suspect that these threads might benefit if all the participants were to follow those definitions as well.

Indeed, if all participants were to follow the same definitions, these threads would probably benefit. Alas, the point of the exchange was that we do not all follow the same definitions, and certain people, including but not limited to Boudicca90, absolutely refuse to follow any definitions. It was Boudicca90 that I was responding to when I made my post, so I think her use of the terms is relevant.

We can get to trans/cis/man/woman, but we can't even agree which ones are male and which are female.

In general, we can almost never make a statement without somebody saying that whatever it is we are saying, it must certainly be bigotry and hatred, unless it fits completely and unquestioningly with the trans rights activists' agenda.

 

[cullennz]

In general, we can almost never make a statement without somebody saying that whatever it is we are saying, it must certainly be bigotry and hatred, unless it fits completely and unquestioningly with the trans rights activists' agenda.

Pretty much the crux of it.

 

[Meadmaker]

Exactly right. As I've said before, I am as much of a woman as the women hatef
ully misgendering me as a "man" or "male" constantly in this thread. Emily's Cat and I, for example, are simply different sub-categories of women.

So, if we are not going to call those people who can become pregnant "women", then we will have to come up with some other term for them.

In the context of transgender issues, we call such people females.


Once again (as if it hasn't been explained enough already....):

Biology = male/female

Gender = man/woman

I truly cannot understand how this is difficult to comprehend. It's almost got to the point where I wonder if there's a form of deliberate antagonism going on.

I want to make a point about this exchange.

Boudicca90 explicitly says that calling her "male" is "hatefully misgendering" her. Those are her words.

I note that we're going to have to have some other term, then.

LJ proceeds to explain what term we can use, but it is exactly the same terminology that Boudicca90 referred to as "hateful misgendering". And yet LondonJohn thinks it is so obvious, that anyone who doesn't use the terminology that he has suggested may be engaging in a "form of deliberate antagonism".


I would suggest someone try to make sense out of it all, but it's impossible. The positions are not only out of sync with common, ordinary, language usage, they don't even make internal sense.

 

[Boudicca90]

I think the problem here is that the disassociation of sex and gender causes a bit of confusion as people are used to using the terms interchangeably.

Add more confusion because some, such as Boudicca, appear to want to re-associate sex to where sex follows gender. In other words, she refers to her transition as not only transitioning gender, but also sex. Thus she doesn't accept the term "male" being applied to her.

the result is that, in conversations with Boudicca, there is not term that applies to what you term biology. (She also considers herself to be biologically female.)

Yes, I am female, not male. I am not a "woman with male gametes/physiology" I am female and a woman, just a different subset of woman as ciswomen.

Who's "we" in this context? Boudicca has explicitly stated that describing her as male is hatefully misgendering her.

Because it absolutely is.

Ah but that's all down to colloquial societal factors where sex and gender labels are used interchangeably. Which is exactly why England&Wales legislation takes care to ensure that (for example) somebody calling a transwoman "male" can still potentially be charged with a criminal offence.

However, in strict medical & academic terms, the definitions I've provided are the general rule. And I suspect that these threads might benefit if all the participants were to follow those definitions as well.

I am not male, either by society's standards or by biology.

 

[theprestige]

Ah but that's all down to colloquial societal factors where sex and gender labels are used interchangeably. Which is exactly why England&Wales legislation takes care to ensure that (for example) somebody calling a transwoman "male" can still potentially be charged with a criminal offence.

However, in strict medical & academic terms, the definitions I've provided are the general rule. And I suspect that these threads might benefit if all the participants were to follow those definitions as well.

I've been following and advocating those definitions from the very beginning of the discussion. I keep getting equivocations or rivers-in-Egypt from the transactivist side of the debate though.

 

[Ziggurat]

I am not male, either by society's standards or by biology.

You are absolutely male by biology. You may want to fundamentally change the definitions of words, but we are not obliged to accept your new definitions. And it isn’t hateful to not use your preferred definition. You don’t get to dictate language like that. Seriously, who do you think you are?

 

[theprestige]

I want to make a point about this exchange.

Boudicca90 explicitly says that calling her "male" is "hatefully misgendering" her. Those are her words.

I note that we're going to have to have some other term, then.

LJ proceeds to explain what term we can use, but it is exactly the same terminology that Boudicca90 referred to as "hateful misgendering". And yet LondonJohn thinks it is so obvious, that anyone who doesn't use the terminology that he has suggested may be engaging in a "form of deliberate antagonism".


I would suggest someone try to make sense out of it all, but it's impossible. The positions are not only out of sync with common, ordinary, language usage, they don't even make internal sense.

The way I make sense of it is that LJ is in charge of holding the bailey for Boudicca while she contests the motte.

The castle, of course, is a gormenghast of fantastical vignettes, questionable characters, and baroque grotesqueries.

 

[Joe Random]

Yes, I am female, not male. I am not a "woman with male gametes/physiology" I am female and a woman, just a different subset of woman as ciswomen.
<...>

I am not male, either by society's standards or by biology.

There's the brink of insanity, and then there's the abyss ...

 

[theprestige]

At this point all I really want to know is whether Boudicca's view of biological sex is mainstream in the trans community, or if it's a fringe position that is disavowed by mainstream trans-activists.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Boudicca90 explicitly says that calling her "male" is "hatefully misgendering" her.

Because most people don't differentiate between 'male' and 'man'.

I note that we're going to have to have some other term, then.

Why?

I would suggest someone try to make sense out of it all, but it's impossible.

No, it's quite simple. Just respect a person's self-identity and don't try to weasel around it. Unless you are a doctor, a person's biological makeup shouldn't be any of your business.

The positions are not only out of sync with common, ordinary, language usage, they don't even make internal sense.

Language is constantly changing, and many positions don't make internal sense.

I know what you mean though. I once dated a lady who called herself Josephine. Imagine my horror to find out that wasn't her real name. Turns out she just used it because she didn't like her real one. She didn't even bother to change her actual sex name, just went around telling people that she was a woman Josephine now.

 

[cullennz]

Yes, I am female, not male. I am not a "woman with male gametes/physiology" I am female and a woman, just a different subset of woman as ciswomen.



Because it absolutely is.



I am not male, either by society's standards or by biology.

With all due respect Boudicca maybe in a few years time, and a shedload of PC manipulation of how the world works, reality might be twisted to match your thinking,

But atm most people would probably say you are a male who thinks they should have been a female, and at least to me personally, you seem to be a nice enough person, so if I ever meet you in real life I would respect you enough to refer to you as a woman.

Others might not agree etc

 

[Myriad]

Unless you are a doctor, a person's biological makeup shouldn't be any of your business.

I look forward to joining my local high school girls gymnastic team, and receiving the same training and other resources the other team members get as I pursue my Olympic dreams on the balance beam.

I'm glad to hear that my being elderly, overweight, and uncoordinated, to say nothing of my reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics, being mere aspects of my biological makeup, will therefore be completely disregarded by the gymnastics coach, who after all is not a doctor.

 

[lionking]

I look forward to joining my local high school girls gymnastic team, and receiving the same training and other resources the other team members get as I pursue my Olympic dreams on the balance beam.

I'm glad to hear that my being elderly, overweight, and uncoordinated, to say nothing of my reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics, being mere aspects of my biological makeup, will therefore be completely disregarded by the gymnastics coach, who after all is not a doctor.

I see a movie (Ron Howard perhaps) of your courageous battle to join the woman’s gymnastic team, the subsequent court cases, and finally your triumphant appearance at the Olympics.

 

[angrysoba]

No, it's quite simple. Just respect a person's self-identity and don't try to weasel around it. Unless you are a doctor, a person's biological makeup shouldn't be any of your business.

That's one view. Another is that it is everyone's business and everyone better get it right or be denounced as a hateful hatefulist.

If someone says, "I'm a biological female", and you say, "Okay, if you say so, but that's really none of my business!" and they say, "Yes, it is! You must be part of the struggle for my self-identity!" What are you going to do? Call yourself a doctor?

Language is constantly changing, and many positions don't make internal sense.

It's true that language changes through use, but attempts to steer the changes and demands that it be used in prescribed ways, backed up by legislation, are seldom successful. You can tell people how they are supposed to use language, but people often pay no attention to these dictates. You'd literally be banging your head against the wall.