Would fire walking have been Paranormal?

[r-j]

This may have been asked before, if so I apologize. Was there ever a time when somebody who claimed to firewalk (with out getting burned of course) would have been considered a Paranormal ability?

Having done it (on hot coals, not actual fire) and knowing why it's possible, I was just wondering if in the distant past would it have qualified? And if so, did anyone ever apply?

And is there a search engine to use for past challenges? So I could answer this for myself? Thanks.

And before anyone asks, no, it is not paranormal, nor am I interested in claiming it is.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Having done it (on hot coals, not actual fire) and knowing why it's possible, I was just wondering if in the distant past would it have qualified? And if so, did anyone ever apply?
.

Distant as in...before the Laws of Thermodynamics were discovered...?

 

[Psi Baba]

I'm pretty sure that there are gurus and fakirs (I love that word) around who perform firewalking and deliberately lead unwary onlookers to believe that what they are doing is paranormal.

 

[r-j]

I would have never tried it based on "faith". It was after I saw a scientists explain it that I was willing to risk it. I'm just curious about the distant past, in regards to the challenge. Like back when it was 1000 dollars. Was firewalking considered woo at some point?

 

[rjh01]

Mythbusters did firewalking once. Adam got burnt trying it. You need to walk slowly over the coals. This is something he did not do as he had not had the training.

 

[Garrette]

I would have never tried it based on "faith". It was after I saw a scientists explain it that I was willing to risk it. I'm just curious about the distant past, in regards to the challenge. Like back when it was 1000 dollars. Was firewalking considered woo at some point?

As firewalking has been known to be non-supernatural for at least the life of the challenge, the answer to your specific question is "no."

For the broader question, I am sure that if you presume an infinite age for the challenge then you could certainly find a time when firewalking would have been considered supernatural under its rules. Exactly how far back you would have to go, I have no idea, but I am sure it is further back than you think.

 

[r-j]

Mythbusters did firewalking once. Adam got burnt trying it. You need to walk slowly over the coals. This is something he did not do as he had not had the training.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dgpsI1MdQI

There is so much wrong with that!

 

[r-j]

As firewalking has been known to be non-supernatural for at least the life of the challenge, the answer to your specific question is "no."

Thanks! I was hearing it was "spiritual" even in the late 80s, people were even charging to "teach" the way to do it.

The real secret is simple, though I never heard a single "Firewalking Guru" tell a soul.

 

[pakeha]

It's a traditional festival here:
http://www.spain.info/en/vive/fiestas/soria/paso_del_fuego_las_mondidas.html

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This is also not paranormal, nor even difficult to explain. (As with firewalking, there really isn't a "secret".)


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[r-j]

This is also not paranormal, nor even difficult to explain. (As with firewalking, there really isn't a "secret".)
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Nobody said firewalking was or is paranormal. The question was if it was ever considered so, for the sake of the challenge.

There is a secret to safe firewalking, but it's hardly a secret to scientists.

Has there ever been anything that was once considered paranormal that is now no longer eligible for the challenge? Any clever tricksters ever even make it to the protocol stage?

 

[xtifr]

The question is too broad. To qualify for the MDC, you have to explain how you think what you're proposing is paranormal. Just saying "I can walk across fire" isn't enough to answer the question one way or the other. That would lead to questions like: "Any fire?" "How hot can it be?" "Can you walk across an electical fire?" and so on.

Once the limited parameters were defined (must be coals, no open flame, under such-and-such conditions), then people would probably start looking at that for possible non-paranormal explanations before accepting the challenge. Whether they would have actually found the real explanation is open to question, but it seems reasonably likely.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Nobody said firewalking was or is paranormal. The question was if it was ever considered so, for the sake of the challenge.

No. Things with simple normal explanations were never considered paranormal for sake of Randi's challenge.

There is a secret to safe firewalking, but it's hardly a secret to scientists.

A secret that isn't a secret is not a secret.

 

[r-j]

I was thinking of all those people who got burned doing it. It was a secret to them!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

To qualify for the MDC, you have to explain how you think what you're proposing is paranormal.

That is not true. The MDC Challenge application materials make it clear that JREF has no interest in hearing theories except insofar as such things might inform the development of a suitable test protocol.. They want only the claim and the specifics of how the claim might be demonstrated/tested.

You can't take a simple natural phenomenon and think up a supernatural explanation for it and get it accepted for the MDC.

I refer the OP and others to the MDC FAQs 2.2 and 2.3.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

This represents the approach Randi has taken all along. There was not some time in the past where anything that was scientifically explicable was considered to be a paranormal claim.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I was thinking of all those people who got burned doing it. It was a secret to them!

Ah--the way calculus is a secret to people who haven't learned calculus. Or the methods of brain surgery are secrets to those of us who don't know the methods of brain surgery.

I don't consider that a correct use of the term "secret".

ETA: Sorry if it sounds like I'm jumping on you over this, but there is a difference between things like firewalking, fire-eating, juggling etc. and something like magic or conjuring. In the former there are no "secrets". There are techniques, but that's not the same as a secret in this context.

ETA: And for more info on the early days of the challenge, I recommend very much reading Randi's Flim Flam. It didn't matter that some paranormal claims were trying to be passed off as science. What mattered is that it wasn't. Similarly, it wouldn't matter if a phenomenon that has a scientific explanation was being passed off as supernatural. What matters is that it isn't.

 

[RemieV]

FYI: There was an applicant who claimed he could firewalk. In order to illustrate that his ability could not be explained by the common understanding, he offered to walk on red hot metal instead. His application was rejected because it would've caused injury.

 

[r-j]

Ah--the way calculus is a secret to people who haven't learned calculus. Or the methods of brain surgery are secrets to those of us who don't know the methods of brain surgery.

Not even close lol! I can learn you the secret in a matter of seconds, unlike those complicated time consuming pursuits.

 

[TSR]

This is also not paranormal, nor even difficult to explain. (As with firewalking, there really isn't a "secret".)


<------

Sure there is. Don't hiccough while blowing a bloom. I heal both quickly and well, but you can still just barely make out the scars on my left hand and wrist. My face, however, had returned to it's normal glorious state <g> in time for the show to open.

But I *am* glad that the several children in that cast were *not* there for that rehearsal.

Just as a final semi-off topic note: manual debridement is very high on my list of "try not to have to do this again" things -- I should have pushed harder for the guppies or maggots to have been used but this was decades ago, and those therapies were far less common.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Sure there is. Don't hiccough while blowing a bloom.

You too have a very odd notion of what constitutes a "secret".

Common sense and some basic knowledge of thermal insulation and conduction is enough to know about walking on hot coals. Some minimal (and obvious) technique and understanding of the fuels is about all that's needed for fire eating and blowing.

There's no "secret" in the sense that there are "secrets" in magic. What you see is really what you get.

ETA: BTW, the way I do the plume or fire-blowing, a hiccough wouldn't cause you to burn yourself. It'd probably result in inhaling or swallowing fuel, which is probably just as bad in the long run. I always put the fuel in the mouth, then set the container of fuel down. (All the accidents I've seen--and I've seen a couple of bad ones--involved what was done as the result of holding the container of fuel.) I always have a clean bandana (no fuel on it) in my non torch hand. You blow out (atomizing) the fuel over the torch. If the flame ignites the stream of fuel/air mix back to the face, stop blowing the stream while using the bandana to swipe out the flame (especially if any fuel has dribbled down the chin). Obviously care should be taken to blow with the wind. (And a wind is preferable to calm, unlike with fire eating.)

But none of this constitutes a secret.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Not even close lol! I can learn you the secret in a matter of seconds, unlike those complicated time consuming pursuits.

You missed the point. It's information that is not hidden or clandestine and is available to anyone. It's not in any of the cases I mentioned "secret" just because someone is ignorant of it.

And the basic principles of walking on hot coals have been widely known for a looong time now.

ETA: And no you can't learn me the secret of walking on hot coals because it's not secret, and I already understand the principle. Burn down the fuel long enough to get a nice layer of insulating ash over the coals, and it's probably less painful or dangerous than walking barefoot across an asphalt parking lot on a hot sunny day.

Also, FWIW, when I was younger and went barefoot a lot of the time, I could easily grind out a lit cigarette in the thick skin of the soles of my feet with no pain and no injury at all.

ETA: And back to the original question, I'm certain Randi has never treated a walking-on-hot-coals claim as paranormal for sake of the challenge. The reason I know this is because he has never had to pay off on a challenge, not even back when it was $1000. If he had accepted a demonstration of walking on hot coals as a demonstration of the paranormal, he would have had to pay off because we all know such demonstrations are possible without trickery (and without anything paranormal going on).

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

FYI: There was an applicant who claimed he could firewalk. In order to illustrate that his ability could not be explained by the common understanding, he offered to walk on red hot metal instead. His application was rejected because it would've caused injury.

Good point. The MDC won't accept anything that might be dangerous (to the claimant or anyone else), so the question is moot anyway.

I know there have been cases where the "theory" behind a claim was that it was something that was not paranormal or supernatural, and Randi cut the gordian knot of that problem by saying that he would consider it a paranormal claim for purposes of the Challenge.

But it's never gone the other way. If there is a known scientific explanation for a phenomenon, no amount of casting it as paranormal will make it a paranormal claim. Randi has never accepted the notion that even though something might be done by normal means, the claimant was going to do it by paranormal means even though the outcome looks the same.

 

[TSR]

You too have a very odd notion of what constitutes a "secret".

That was supposed to be a joke Since a hiccough is not a voluntary act, I thought this would be clear. Kind of like, the secret to successfully landing a plane is not to crash.

ETA: BTW, the way I do the plume or fire-blowing, a hiccough wouldn't cause you to burn yourself. It'd probably result in inhaling or swallowing fuel, which is probably just as bad in the long run. I always put the fuel in the mouth, then set the container of fuel down. (All the accidents I've seen--and I've seen a couple of bad ones--involved what was done as the result of holding the container of fuel.) I always have a clean bandana (no fuel on it) in my non torch hand. You blow out (atomizing) the fuel over the torch. If the flame ignites the stream of fuel/air mix back to the face, stop blowing the stream while using the bandana to swipe out the flame (especially if any fuel has dribbled down the chin). Obviously care should be taken to blow with the wind. (And a wind is preferable to calm, unlike with fire eating.)

But none of this constitutes a secret.

All of which I had done (tho I used a cloth diaper which had been dyed to match the costume) and had a crew standing by with larger wraps into the bargain. This wasn't my first time at the rodeo as they say. I made my entrance as late in the song as possible but still had most of eight bars standing there holding the crap in my mouth. Bleh! It was being done on an enclosed stage, so no wind available.

We had decided on two blooms about two bars apart, and the first was picture perfect.

The problem was, the hiccough caused the stream not to atomize, but to dribble -- stop being a spray and become a stream, if you get what I'm saying. No opportunity to stop the fuel from coming out. This then fell on the torch hand. The big problem was, despite drills including instructions that if something happened no one else was to touch me, the crew momentarily froze (none had any experience beyond my instructions and the drills, I do not blame them too much), allowing a "helpful" cast member to grab the dipe to just dab at my hand. Ineffective, as you might guess and somehow (this part is unclear to me, I was on fire at the time) this allowed the little that was still on my lips and chin to ignite. That's why my face wasn't damaged as much as the hand -- the crew recovered and pushed him away so they could help get the fire out.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

Thanks! I was hearing it was "spiritual" even in the late 80s, people were even charging to "teach" the way to do it.

Even when the true methods and reasons are known, there will be charlatans and frauds that will go around claiming it is "magic" or something. Just look at all the people who claim to be psychic that are doing (bad) cold reading. We all know it's cold reading, but their marks think they are psychic because of the remembered hits and forgotten misses. Same with firewalking and anything else that traveling "magicians" who portray themselves as holy men do.