Steve
Penultimate Amazing
You have never actually tried to communicate with a person working in a call center, have you?
Working From Home...
- Thread starter The Atheist
- Start date
You have never actually tried to communicate with a person working in a call center, have you?
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
This is the norm in the corporate world. I spent my entire working life in mechanical engineering. Mostly with smaller firms of less than 100 people. My hours were somewhat flexible and I worked from home occasionally, all on a verbal agreement with my immediate boss. A few years before my retirement we were bought out and became part of a large corporation c/w middle management. It then became mandatory to toe the corporate line re work hours and location - no more work at home.
So I was in the office every day and the new manager could see me. As if that helped. The work that I did was rather specialized. I was the only one in the office who knew how to do what I did. And we even had other engineering firms sub-contract this type of work to us because they had nobody who knew how to do it. That being the case it really made no difference where I did the work as long as my designs were completed on time, on budget, etc. But it was important that my manager, who did not understand what I did, was able to see me at my work station. He could only assume that, even in the office, I was devoting all my time to my work because he had no way of telling if I was not.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
Over here broadband for work use can be offset against tax liability. As can heat, electricity and other costs.
My employer paid for one broadband link (1Gb 5G) entirely and offsets the coat of the other links.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
I work remotely a lot, usually heading into the office for some hours 3-4 days per week (avoiding traffic). SO#1 tends to be 'on-site' a lot (academic) and SO#2 is remote for two days at least.
By boss is 50/50, but (like me) she travels a lot.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
Exactly.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
Oh good grief, this is just puerile nonsense.
And, at least here, you're utterly wrong about police.
Yup. I do hybrid working. And in fact with recent expansion we could fit in about 80% of our office-based workforce.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
A good point. Realistically a reliable 2Mb/s link will do video traffic juts fine, and that's about the limit unless you're transferring large files or working with CAD/CAM, AI or similar apps.
How could have have survived?
I had ~2Mb last millennium and ~10Mb twenty years ago.
catsmate
No longer the 1
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 33,262
Oh grow up. And look at you country's broadband internet access stats
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
.
The company I worked for for 27 years went through a phase (well before Covid) of moving to hotdesking and encouraging employees to work from home. I resisted, as I personally preferred to work in the office, and managed to keep a dedicated desk until I left. I never lived more than six miles from the office, so commuting wasn't an issue, and for sixteen of the years I had the ability to work from home as I was on call at weekends.
The pendulum swang back, and policy became that employees had to come in to the office for at least several days a week, which seemed pointless to me, but obviously didn't directly affect me, since I was there already. I think there are benefits to seeing cow-orkers from time to time, but for most office jobs it doesn't need to be every day. I was mostly working in teams that were dotted around the world, often with none of them in the same town as me, and we worked pretty well together, especially if we were able to meet each other, ideally to get together in one place once or twice a year.
The pendulum swang back, and policy became that employees had to come in to the office for at least several days a week, which seemed pointless to me, but obviously didn't directly affect me, since I was there already. I think there are benefits to seeing cow-orkers from time to time, but for most office jobs it doesn't need to be every day. I was mostly working in teams that were dotted around the world, often with none of them in the same town as me, and we worked pretty well together, especially if we were able to meet each other, ideally to get together in one place once or twice a year.
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2006
- Messages
- 54,259
Yea we should be proud of that rural areas lack a good internet connection, it is as the market dictates and therefor is a moral good. What are you going to do use government to subsidize it, that kind of socialism will never fly.
Same reason why it is good that so many rural areas are losing obgyn they just don't have the population to keep them employed properly.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,191
Oh god, you don't want to deal with facts instead of the emotive claptrap so far, do you?
I'll play either way, but I tend to find that evidence is the best way to resolve an issue, so let's have a look at some:
U Chicago
Stanford, via Forbes: Working From Home Leads To Decreased Productivity, Research Suggests
LA Times
Maybe you can browse the above and think again.
The research is muddied due to the pandemic forcing WFH on many people, but in 2024 we're seeing the results on the real world of business.
Do you for a split second think employers and company owners - whose only interest is the bottom line - would be taking away WFH privileges if it increased productivity?
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,191
What a lovely strawman, but I've seen you be 100% wrong about me enough times to be totally unsurprised you'd suggest that.
Supervision has nothing to do with it.
Two quaint little strawmen in a row. Utter nonsense. The inequality isn't a reason to stop WFH, it's just a handy bat to whack dickheads with.
I'll back my recruitment credentials against yours every day of the week and the idea that call centre jobs are bad on a resume is as dumb as lionking's comment about supervision.
Sorry, but my knowledge so far exceeds yours in this area it's funny you'd say that. The amounts stated are 100% correct, but feel free to keep making a fool of yourself.
Now, that's funny.
Utterly absurd comment, but funny as **** - how do I exploit blue-collar workers more than a telecommuter? Go on, I'm ready for some serious LULZ here.
I'm sure it makes you feel good to think that, but I can easily show that I've been working on productivity for the past decade, mainly due to NZ's appallingly low productivity. I don't fear change, I create it.
But lovely attempt!
Not if I can help it - they're mostly based in Bangalore or Manila, so I'm not even sure the call centre argument is either honest or relevant.
The enormous majority of WFH jobs aren't call centres, but are paper-pusher jobs - and the paper-pushers are reacting exactly as expected.
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2001
- Messages
- 14,828
Can you explain to me how sending all those "elitists" into an office building to sit at a desk instead of being at home sitting at a desk, benefits the farm workers, supermarket staff, et al in any way?
Or, how being at home costs those other workers in any way?
Last edited:
plague311
Great minds think...
I found this on Stanford's website that cites this study that conflicts with your link:
So now what? Your "I know more than you guys" schtick doesn't seem to hold up to other studies. It actually appears that hybrid schedules have the best outcome for employees and employers.
Put any of your credentials up against other peoples' and it won't mean ****. You might think you know more than everyone else but you don't. You don't work in other countries, you don't work in other atmospheres, you just don't know as much as you think you do.
As was said, you just give off heavy, heavy mid-level manager boomer vibes screaming for people to get off your lawn.
For my job, hybrid working is pretty useful. As opposed to colleagues in different offices, there are two immediate colleagues who live 500miles apart (230 and 290 miles away from the office) and I was able to get work done for several months whilst caring for my father, another 250 miles away. (My kids looked after my house).
We have also been able to hire engineers in different countries without them having to permanently move to the UK.
It also makes it easier when dealing conference calls with suppliers in the West Coast US and the far East in the same day, as otherwise the commute is very tedious and unproductive for very long days.
We have also been able to hire engineers in different countries without them having to permanently move to the UK.
It also makes it easier when dealing conference calls with suppliers in the West Coast US and the far East in the same day, as otherwise the commute is very tedious and unproductive for very long days.
angrysoba
Philosophile
He’s the Fair Fairy in Dog Man (no doubt everyone knows what I’m talking about). Faced with two kids fighting over who can eat the cookie, the Fair Fairy smashes the cookie so that neither can have it. That’s fair!!
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,191
It doesn't, although increases in productivity help everyone.
There are lots of conflicting studies. Given time there will be a consensus and I'm sure what that will say.
Individually, there are benefits, but the detrimental effects of less collaboration and overall productivity outweigh most of the good.
I wrote a paper about 20 years ago asking why the hell we weren't letting most people work from home to take advantage of internet technologies and have a positive affect on climate change and pollution.
20 years later, and after a pandemic that forced people to work from home, I'm happy to admit that I was wrong. It's not as simple as the paper pushers and public servants think it is, but they don't have an understanding of how businesses actually work, and more importantly, grow.
3point14
Pi
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 22,685
Could you make up your mind where you'd like the goalposts to be please?
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,191
That isn't changing the goalposts one bit. The elitism isn't a reason to dismiss it, it's just a handy tool. The reason WFH is busted is about productivity and growth, exactly as stated in the post prior to yours.
You have already admitted that you are only guessing about productivity, which for many office workers is either not measured, or is not able to be effectively measured.
And I don’t have to guess about this, because I have measured productivity in offices involved in straightforward processing activities. But outside this sort of environment it can’t be measured properly (as a colleague, better than me, once said “how do you measure thinking”).
In an earlier post I pointed out how attrition dramatically reduces for WFH workers. Just ask any business about the cost of high attrition rates and ask if they would trade in a few (possible) percentage points of productivity for a big jump in retention, and they would in a heartbeat.
And where does it say that collaboration is not possible with WFH? Most companies still have regular in person and internet meetings. Business travel has rebounded to exceed pre-covid levels:
https://www.axios.com/2024/07/17/business-travel-rates
Trusting your workers is good for both employees and employers. Some dinosaurs will resist WFH. They will suffer as a result.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,191
If you have a look, I've shown evidence that it affects productivity negatively, so that's a bust.
Funny that the companies that have been allowing it have seen the exact opposite and are insisting on a return to the office.
One report, and you admit that there are contradictory studies. So far from a bust.
Now tell me, if there has been such a drop in productivity, why have we not seen widespread recessions? In fact, most national economies are in very good health.
Companies want their expensive office blocks filled. That’s all there is to it.
EHocking
Philosopher
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Not all companies have decided against work from home, though. You are making blanket statements as if all companies in all industries are experiencing the same thing, and making the same decision. My own employer has seen the opposite of what you are claiming: our productivity is up, and we're saving money by having people work from home when possible. I'm certain my company is not unique in this.
There reaches a point in an argument about work where if you just keep repeating the word "productivity" as an argument over and over I start hearing it in German.
Since wages aren't going up "productivity' does 99% of people no good. If I'm more productive all I'm doing is putting money in someone else's pocket. So I'd rather be equally productive in my house.
Since wages aren't going up "productivity' does 99% of people no good. If I'm more productive all I'm doing is putting money in someone else's pocket. So I'd rather be equally productive in my house.
Last edited:
Productivity isn't the be-all-and-end-all of success.
There's also:
Employee retention
Accuracy and data integrity
Workplace safety
Or, heaven forbid, job satisfaction.
There's also:
Employee retention
Accuracy and data integrity
Workplace safety
Or, heaven forbid, job satisfaction.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
I grew up on a farm back in the 1960's. The vast majority farm workers lived on the property, as did the owners. Going to work was literally a matter of stepping out the back door. In those days people who lived in the country and worked in town were considered 'elitist' because only the rich could afford it.
In more recent times (until 2020) I was doing experimental insect control on large orchards in central Hawkes Bay, 20-30km away from the nearest town. Orchard managers generally lived on-site, and accommodation was provided for seasonal workers (typically pacific islanders or working tourists). City slickers might not like the isolation and lack of night life, but many rural people prefer it. Does that make them elitist? People who have to commute for hours each day to sit in an office might think so, but most of them only do it so they can have their own 'elitist' life in the suburbs - a privilege they pay dearly for.
Office Tax makes working from home more affordable for Kiwis
In the 1980's we dreamed of the 21st century, when powerful computers would make office drudgery a thing of the past. Now the future is finally here and we are still dragging the chain. Why? The answer is simple - Ludditism. People are too set in their ways and don't don't want to embrace modern technology, despite its obvious advantages.
"You can't virtually serve coffee... or heal a patient who's at the hospital" says the 'expert'. That may have been true in the 19th century, but not today. We even have surgeons using robots to perform operations in another country! So-called autonomous taxis are being supervised by humans remotely (which could become big business if the boffins can't get full self-driving to work 100% reliably). Instead of being there, factory workers could simply don a VR headset or even connect via neural implant over wifi, guiding robots to do the actual work.
In another decade or so we may look back at today the same way we view the early industrial revolution, where millions of workers (including children as young as 4 years old) were crammed into factories doing repetitive labor for 14–16 hours a day 6 days a week because people were cheaper than machines. We shouldn't be doing work like that. Instead we should be using our unique creative abilities, in a relaxing environment conducive to maximizing our potential. Being stuck in traffic for an hour before even getting to work is not it.
The silly part is, most people are already comfortable with interacting remotely. From forums like this to online video games and smartphones etc., the modern world largely is virtual - we just need to embrace it more. Problem is the people making decisions about working from home are mostly the older generation, who are stuck in the past.
Not only retention but attracting employees in the first place. It's quite possible that potential employees have made lives working for competitors in different cities (or countries) and not needing to relocate makes it easier to recruit them.
A good point. Realistically a reliable 2Mb/s link will do video traffic juts fine, and that's about the limit unless you're transferring large files or working with CAD/CAM, AI or similar apps.
How could have have survived?
I had ~2Mb last millennium and ~10Mb twenty years ago.
I have a 5mb link and worked very satisfactorily at home for 15 years except for when they cut our phone line for a month.
So, I guess the whole "elitism" thing is just a red herring. You think it sounds good but don't actually endorse it as a good argument.
Nevertheless, you are still opposed to WFH in general, because you think it negatively affects productivity. Fair enough, but it seems like it's worthwhile to run the experiment. To the extent that it's bad for productivity, firms will phase it out. To the extent that it isn't, they won't.
It seems plausible to me that some firms can implement it in ways that are good for productivity, but that requires doing things a little differently than they are used to. With adjustment and experimentation in implementation they will get better at it. Others, who don't make that adjustment, will find it affecting productivity negatively. So, over time we'll see more firms making those adjustments, while others whose workforce isn't suited to WFH will move away from it. Seems good to me.
There are definitely potential upsides to work from home. There are also potential downsides. Over time we should find a new equilibrium, part of which will include innovative strategies to get the most out of the upsides and mitigate the downsides.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
I found out during the pandemic that I go kind of stir crazy if I'm working from home more than a couple of days in a row. But I understand perfectly well that's just me. There are others in the office who work from home on the regular and absolutely no issue with it.
jeremyp
Illuminator
Why did you lead with the elitism then?
Why didn't you start with a claim about productivity and growth, about which we could have a sensible discussion, instead of using an emotive and obviously silly argument?
3point14
Pi
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 22,685
It's textbook.
It just seems that you tried one ill considered argument then, when that fell to pieces, you tried another ill considered argument.
Have fun with that.
dirtywick
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 8,551
well i think this is a huge and often forgotten part of the equation. what do i care about growth and productivity if it's not making people's lives better? growth and productivity are a means to an end, right? so, why is any of that important if making people's lives better isn't even considered?
3point14
Pi
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 22,685
Of course it isn't. The people that make the decision are the ones that profit from increased productivity and this does not, as it were, trickle down.
And yet, as I said earlier, world economies are healthy. Surely if WFH was so damaging, we would be seeing the impact by now.
Donal
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,823
I feel pretty damned trickled on. I've had this discussion at work. I apparently hit the top of my pay band (which is a thing because...) so the only way I can get mroe money is to either take a promotion to an adminsitrative position or transfer to another group where I'd probably have to work overnight
Last edited:
plague311
Great minds think...
There are sites for that where you can make good money....and you can do it from home!