• Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
  • Please excuse the mess, we're moving the furniture and restructuring the forum categories
  • You may need to edit your signatures.

    When we moved to Xenfora some of the signature options didn't come over. In the old software signatures were limited by a character limit, on Xenfora there are more options and there is a character number and number of lines limit. I've set maximum number of lines to 4 and unlimited characters.

Will the Starliner ever enter service?

When will the Starliner succeed with crewed test? (multiple selections allowed)

  • Before SpaceX Starship enters regular non-crewed service

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Sometime after SpaceX Spaceship enters regular uncrewed service

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • After Starship begins crewed operations

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Soon, maybe in June or July of this year (2024)

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Not until fall of 2024

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Months and months away, maybe a year or more but they'll get there.

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Never. Boeing and NASA cut losses and drop the effort

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • Stick it inside a Starship and pretend that counts.

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Option 7, but they revive the effort once Elon Musk's major mental malfunctions destroy SpaceX

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22
Cost-plus contracts were common in Apollo and Shuttle eras. This made sense when you're doing something that has never been done before and you don't know how much it will cost or how long it will take. The government needs the expertise of the industry, but the industry has to answer to shareholders and won't take the contract if it means assuming all the risk of uncertainty. So it's a way to guarantee the contractor a profit no matter what the costs. That doesn't stop the government from imposing interim deadlines and reasonable cost controls. In fact, both the Apollo and Shuttle programs encountered cost and schedule overruns that led to hearings and contract reassignments (e.g., Bell losing its contract to Aerojet for the lunar module engines). Cost-plus contracts can include penalties for non-performance and incentives for meeting milestones.

Starliner is not a cost-plus contract. It's a fixed-price contract. That means of Boeing doesn't deliver, Boeing eats the cost. The SLS launch vehicle, however, is a cost-plus contract. And yes, the inspector-general of NASA is highly displeased at the SLS contracts for vast cost and schedule overruns. I'm not convinced that cost-plus funding was appropriate for SLS. The funding basis matters when the company is publicly owned versus privately owned. As a private company, SpaceX has a different risk model than Boeing, which is a publicly-held company whose executives have a fiduciary duty to third-party shareholders. But that doesn't excuse Boeing's ongoing and increasing ineptitude due to poor management.

No matter how you slice it, SpaceX has outperformed Boeing in crewed orbital flight. The funding model is part of the overall picture, but not an inevitable cause or shortcoming.
 
What do you all think of this assertion:



Do contractors like Boeing have no incentive to control costs or stay within budget because they actually make more money when their project runs over budget and doesn't deliver what was promised?
Depends on the contract structure. But one of SpaceX's fist contracts with NASA was to ferry astronauts to the ISS at a cost of $20m per head (these were SpaceX's numbers not NASA's) because the Russians were getting flaky. When Russia announced they were pulling out, SpaceX immediately jacked up their prices to the same level the Russians were charging, c. $80m per head, and NASA ate the price increase, despite the contract.
 
Depends on the contract structure. But one of SpaceX's fist contracts with NASA was to ferry astronauts to the ISS at a cost of $20m per head (these were SpaceX's numbers not NASA's) because the Russians were getting flaky. When Russia announced they were pulling out, SpaceX immediately jacked up their prices to the same level the Russians were charging, c. $80m per head, and NASA ate the price increase, despite the contract.
Being the backup contractor is different from being the primary and only contractor.
 
Back
Top Bottom